KEY HILLARY DEMOGRAPHIC (WOMEN) DENIED HER NOMINATION
OprahObama7 (OO7) said 05/16, 07:25 AM
I have listened to a lot of women who were heads over heels about Hillary Clinton just under a year ago, who have suddenly turned against her. Most of these women are old enough to have been around when women could not vote.
Maybe it will take the US another 3 -4 decades before it has another strong woman Presidential candidate. But all these women are prepared to live with that.
Hillary brought this upon herself. The shocking tenor of her campaign over the primary season cost her a significant voting block, the women. She must not even attempt to blame it on women. They are free to switch their allegiance any time, and at this historic point in our country, they chose Obama.
He used all the strategies that were meant to destroy her opponent, and in turn the party with little consideration for the country.
If Hillary Clinton miraculously wins the nomination, I will vote for her because I am a committed Democrat, but I wish she loses. Fortunately that looks very unlikely as Obama is sailing right towards the White House. Anyone who believes women who believes that women who voted Obama aborted the dream of a Woman President must participate in this debate.007
theyoungdem said 05/16, 09:41 PM
I'm an Obama fan myself, but are you watching the elections?
Hillary is actually winning in women votes, she gets more of those than Obama.
You say the choose Obama, and the can switch their "allegiance"? It's not as if every single woman was for Hillary at the beggining and were pledged to her.
Well that's all I had to say really, watch the exit polls, the majority of the time, she wins women votes, especially older ones, regarding your statement: "Most of these women are old enough to have been around when women could not vote."
Are we watching the same election here? Hillary not only does better with women but also older voters.
OprahObama7 (OO7) said 05/17, 08:22 AM
No Youngdem your facts are not accurate.
Remember when Obama secured 11 straight wins. Women had abandoned Clinton. He was getting an average of 51 to her 47. He had the momentum.
Yes the polls showed that before the primaries started she was the favorite, but that changed after Feb Super Tues.
She only gained back her influence of the women voter in PA and going forward. So the women vote has not been totally loyal to her, I think for obvious reasons.
Obama won the following women votes:
North Carolina 55%
Mississippi 58%
Vermont 56%
Maryland 55%
Illinois 64%
Georgia 65%
Alabama 56%
Wisconsin 50% Hillary got 48%
Louisiana 58%
Missouri 49% Hillary got 48% and Edwards 2%
The list goes on.
So there is no evidence that Hillary dominates the women votes.
theyoungdem said 05/17, 12:31 PM
My facts are not accurate? These are some states where Hillary won in women votes:
Nevada 51%
West Virginia 73%
Indiana 52%
Pennsylvania 59%
Texas 54%
Rhode Island 66%
Ohio 57%
Tennesse 58%
New Mexico 52%
Arizona 53%
California 59%
Oklahoma 54%
Arkansas 73%
New York 62%
Massachusetts 62%
New Jersey 58%
Connecticut 53%
New Hampshire 46% (compared to Obama's 34%)
and some more
I have never said that the women have been totally loyal to her. Your argument is the one that is flawed, all women were not for Hillary at the begginning, there was no pledge that they had to Hillary that they eventually went against in the end, Obama simply got more voters from different categories.
You say the women votes denied her nomination, it was not that. What denied her nomination which caused her to lose it was more of Obama's ability to appeal to voters with his policies, attitude, background, etc.
You also say: "She only gained back her influence of the women voter in PA and going forward"
You will see that many of the states I have listed occured before PA primaries.
OprahObama7 (OO7) said 05/18, 05:11 PM
Youngdem, I am fully aware that both candidates enjoyed support from different demographics, but I singled out the women group because its worth examining.
1. She is a woman and there was an assumption that she had this block in the bag.
2. Its going to be a significant group in the general elections, and fact that Hillary will not get the nomination should not be of concern because Obama has strong women support and will carry their vote more than McCain.
My argument is that millions of women voters who's dream was to see a Woman president in their lifetime, decided to postpone that dream because Hillary was not the kind of politician they wanted to propel to the White House.
I listed some (and not all) the states where Obama beat Hillary on women votes in response to your statement, "It's not as if every single woman was for Hillary at the beginning and were pledged to her", whatever you meant with that.
The point I am making is that Obama has enjoyed women support in many states despite repeated claims that Hillary was strong on women voters.
I hope you enjoyed the debate, but I'm sorry, It didn't turn out to be what I thought I would be.
007
theyoungdem said 05/18, 05:53 PM
"She is a woman and there was an assumption that she had this block in the bag." There was an assumption that she had the nomination in the bag, before anything even started. Also with regards to your second point, I don't know why you brought it up, but I'd like to remind you that the "women category" is very general and it covers several demographics, such as: "blue collar white workers, African Americans, college graduates, etc", singling them out and making them one collective group being swayed together by a candidate is ludicrous.
There were a large amount of women, however, who voted for Hillary simply on the basis of her being a woman.
You state: "The point I am making is that Obama has enjoyed women support in many states despite repeated claims that Hillary was strong on women voters"
Your topic statement: "KEY HILLARY DEMOGRAPHIC (WOMEN) DENIED HER NOMINATION"
Those two are different things, they both had their share within voters who are female, but this did not deny her the nomination. There was no claim that Hillary would win the nomination due to her support among women, many states even had polls where she was always behind in women votes, such as in VA
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I agree with youngdem, although I'm not familiar with any nation-wide figures to support either side's argument. That would help. In any case, I think it is folly to say that any one group or constituency "caused" one candidate to win or lose. You can pick and choose any voting bloc and say that that was the difference maker: "[Black/young/educated/left-handed/atheist/minority, etc.] voters went for Obama, so he won..." Your argument seems to suggest that women, as a whole, committed themselves to Clinton in the beginning, and have since switched sides to some extent. My understanding is that the demographics have remained fairly constant throughout the primary season, but that the youth and black votes turned up in unprecedentedly high proportions.
DonkeyDude | 05/16/08
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--"Most of these women are old enough to have been around when women could not vote." You mean all the women who voted for the prohibition are still a powerful voting bloc?!?!?
MorgMcA | 05/16/08
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Pit Bull lol, why do you compliment youngdem on every single one of his debates? Donkeydude as well, you two act like he is supremely awesome at his debates.
womenequality | 05/17/08
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and that you must compliment him or he will get angry and do something evil
womenequality | 05/17/08
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First of all, I don't compliment him on every single one of his debates. Second, I compliment him occasionally because he's trying to develop his debate skills, and he appreciates/invites constructive criticism. He's shown a lot of development over the past month or so; and it's good to hear encouragement when one's trying to improve. He's also been one of the more cordial users here, so I have no qualms about voicing objective support when merited.
USA Pit Bull 63 | 05/17/08
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Pit Bull you flatter me. Also womanequality, pit bull and donkey dude definitely don't compliment me on every single debate, if you don't believe me you should go check out my earlier debates.
theyoungdem | 05/17/08
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Yeah i remember debates where people told you, "you suck", but you've definately gotten past those days
MorgMcA | 05/17/08
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"Womenequality," the tone of your comment doesn't exactly compel me to give you a legitimate response, but I'll agree with the last few comments. I was sometimes reckless with my frustrated comments and harsh criticism, and an undue proportion was directed at youngdem. I've since come to respect his earnest efforts, and I think he's improved a good deal at this. We've also become friends on facebook, which makes his perspectives seem more real to me. I think it's very impressive that someone his age (17) would have the interest in and knowledge of politics he has shown, let alone his expressive ability. It's a shame that compliments are read on this site with such disdain.
DonkeyDude | 05/18/08
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holy **** 17? That makes me feel stupid...lol. I'm not agreeing with OO7, but you have to admit, her advantage among women were much less significant than she had hoped.
strongleader | 05/18/08
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I must be honest youngdem, I didn't understand your 2nd post on this debate, care to clarify it (just for my benefit).
OprahObama7 (OO7) | 05/18/08
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I'm sorry, I voted for myself. I didn't know if that was possible. I don't know if that's allowed. If not, in the interest of fareness, just minus my vote from the total count. Apologies, I'll get the hang of this as time goes by. 007
OprahObama7 (OO7) | 05/18/08
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"I listed some (and not all) the states where Obama beat Hillary on women votes in response to your statement, "It's not as if every single woman was for Hillary at the beginning and were pledged to her", whatever you meant with that." You don;t know what that means? I really don't know how to put it in simpler terms, but basically not all women were for Hillary at the begginning. And I enjoyed this debate, but I don't know what you were expecting. Were you expecting someone to accept who agrees with you?
theyoungdem | 05/18/08
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Hej, youngdem, if you're up to it again, and ready for a challenge send an iraq my way, maybe it'd be fun. just don't bring up the 151k "violently" bit.
MorgMcA | 05/19/08
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Morg: That's one of my favorite things to debate about, I'll send one soon. Yeah, I was winning this, but I guess my last argument wasn't persuasive enough
theyoungdem | 05/19/08
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I'll vote for you youngdem, I believe your argument is more convincing, though it looks like many people strongly believe in the other side.
strongleader | 05/19/08
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Please keep it clean. Bad words will get filtered, and offensive comments will be removed.
Only Axl Rose remains in the group, but since 1987 GnR has been rocking with fury
More than 50 years of cover stories about the 35th President
I made some typos, switch some of the "the"s to "they"s I apologize, I have a massive migraine right now
theyoungdem | 05/16/08
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