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theyoungdem won the Face Off.

theyoungdem vs MorgMcA

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Face Offs: 25
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Withdrawal from Iraq exists as necessary very soon

theyoungdem said 05/19, 06:12 PM
I have many points that I would like to use, but unfortunatley we only have 1200 characters. So I'll use two points to defend my statement (not using the overused points of death of soldiers, no WMDs found, etc)

#1 It will push Iraqi lawmakers to come to more agreements in running the new democracy.

Much of Iraq is still bitterly divided. Sunnis used to rule the country under Saddam. Now it is the Shiites in power. However, until government officials can learn to share certain powers and come to more agreements, a de facto civil war will continue. If American troops leave, it will push lawmakers to immediatley fully utilize their abilities and start negotiations since soldiers will no longer be protecting from insurgencies.

#2 All the money, troops, supplies, etc being used in Iraq could be sent to Afghanistan where the real threat still exists.

The war on terror invoked fear upon Americans, our real goal should be to fully exploit to our potential to Afghanistan/Pakistan. Bin Laden was the only real enemy which caused major problems to the U.S., therefore we should concentrate on him at the moment as much as we can.

MorgMcA said 05/19, 10:12 PM
1 Alot in Iraq has changed in the course of the last few years, most especially in the "civil war" arena. Within this last years Americans have developed a working relationship with the Sunni militias and have in effect converted them from militias and into local police forces. The current threat to peace and stability in Iraq lies not with the Sunni militias, but rather the Shia militias, against whom a few months ago the Shia dominated government launched an offensive w/o american troops. Throwing the moderates toward chaos will not make things better. The Weimar republic fell apart as the extremists took over because the moderates couldn't deal effectively with the chaos. The Nazis could

2 Although Osama and Zawahiri probably are in Afghanistan, Iraq has become their rallying cause, supplied by us (on purpose). Yes there are terrorist cells throughout the world, but most of the new recruits are fighting and dieing in Iraq. This cause to free Iraq from the invader has brought thousands of radical muslims to Iraq, draining AlQaeda's recruitment pool. Though we may not be able to find Osama in Iraq, fighting in Iraq marginalizes him, which may be better than actually killing him

theyoungdem said 05/20, 05:40 PM
That's true, but they can't keep relying on us, its unfortunate that we're being dragged into their conflicts. From this we are now in heavy debt with China, while having the potential of sending troops and supplies else where or using the money on hospitals, schools, etc. Instead it goes to Iraq.

Also there is a reason for there being so many new recruits of terrorists who fight and die in Iraq. The reason for that is because we are currently there. Al-Qaeda in Iraq formed in 2004, after the invasion. The purpose was to fight against the Americans. The reason they are still recruiting? We are still there, consequently giving them a reason to recruit and continue to fight.

Al-Qaeda as formed by Osama, is not much of an organization in Iraq. The "Al-Qaeda" in Iraq, is more of a concept following the ideology of Osama.

Osama is the root of the major terrorism against the U.S., and we unfortunatley are causing the strengthening and rallying of these terrorists in Iraq, by being in Iraq.

Before conducting more catastrophic damage, we should pull out, and concentrate on Osama, and our own domestic defense.

MorgMcA said 05/20, 10:09 PM
They are in fact relying less and less on us, their last offensive against the Sadrists was without American support, Iraqis solo went in to deal with the Shia militias

Actually youngdem I think it a good thing that Iraq is the rally cause and recruitment tool for Al-qaeda. Many sleeper cells have moved from targeting western civilians to fight soldiers in Iraq. This rally cry will begin to get old as people will grow weary of constant call to free Iraq from the oppressive Americans especially when the Iraqis are showing more and more control over the situation. Meanwhile their fight will bleed them of their available members

Yes Osama is the head of Al-Qaeda, however his move to commit to Iraq leaves him in jeopardy of being eclipsed by the war in Iraq (within his own organization), as the Iraqi war becomes a larger issue in the organization it may overtake the organization from within

We're in the process of nation-building, and have reached already many imp. benchmarks for gauging progress. Every new nation is going to experience hiccups, the imp. thing is this new government is proving itself capable of acting, more and more w/o instruction or crutches from us

theyoungdem said 05/21, 05:53 PM
Now that they are relying less and less on us, we should withdraw, sincesince it would give them the oppprtunity to take the less reliance even further.

Targeting western civilians is a threat, but our last attack was on as we all remember September 11, 2001. The conclusion was that Osama was the matermind behind it, therefore we should have fully utilized what we had to go after him. That would have been and still is a better place to fight than Iraq. It is not as if all Al-Qaeda members around the middle east flock to Iraq to fight Americans. Al-Qaeda in Iraq contains mostly Iraqis.

Osama, would wish Iraq's Al-Qaeda to defeat us, but to him their defeat would not come as a great blow. He himself is not involved with them, only his ideas are.

Every new nation always has important benchmarks, but it is not our job to guide every new nation through these benchmarks. We, mainly Bush, has this view of us as the "world police", our super economy and prevailing military gives us the power, but we should not make the mistake and try to get involved in wrong affairs causing us to lose much more than we could have gained.

MorgMcA said 05/21, 09:42 PM
but you overstep yourself, i said that they are relying less and less on us, using the Sadr city offensive as an example. But remember though the Shia dominated government has proven that it can move against the Sadrists alone, it hasn't shown that they can win. Iraq is trying to reign in it's extremists (a move only made possible by American support elsewhere) with limited success. the Iraqis are acting like a gov, but struggling to actually govern, the ability that they have is due to the fact that we are giving them an opening to act

AlQaeda in Iraq in fact is mostly comprised of Saudis, Syrians, Egyptians and other foreigners, this is AlQaeda's rally cause for all cells. the militias (insurgency) are iraqi, but AlQaeda is almost entirely foriegn

Osama didn't come up with radical islam, his ideas are how to implement it and as people focus on how to win in iraq they may begin to ignore his grander stategies as they focus solely on winning in iraq. this war is causing many in AlQaeda to lose sight of the forest for all the trees, we have them distracted in Iraq

Of course we can't be reponsible for the developement of all countries, just the ones that we create. like Iraq

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It's one of my favorate topics too. This is one topic i wish i had 3500 characters available, but nobody would listen to me talk for that long so i guess it's just as well.

MorgMcA | 05/19/08

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theyoungdem vs MorgMcA

Withdrawal from Iraq exists as necessary very soon

theyoungdem beat MorgMcA 6 to 5

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