There's no conclusive proof that we're bound to the World by "gravity" rather than magic.
Evangelical said 05/24, 05:39 PM
"Gravity" is what the LIBERAL-OWNED scientific community calls the force that BRINGS a ball back to you after you throw it up in the AIR. I call it "God's favor". After all, you can't PROVE that there's such a thing as gravity. Good luck proving THAT there's no such thing as God, though!
Case in point, I was short on my rent the other day, and I prayed REAL hard, and God gave me the money to pay it! It was just SITTING there on a bench, tucked inside a envelope like the one I GET from the bank when I cash my paycheck!
And, later that day, I had been sitting DOWN and the envelope fell out of my pocket - and I almost forgot it, but no sir; God sent a nice person to tap me on the shoulder and say, "Sir, is that yours?" I digress...
In conclusion, because GOD is a fact, you must use God as an explanation FOR the "staying on the World" phenomenon, rather than this invisible "gravity" nonsense.
Ariyel said 05/24, 08:27 PM
Well, I'm not entirely sure what your intentions are. I can't tell if you honestly mean what you are saying or if you are taking a stab at Christianity. I will treat this as if you are serious.
God and science are not mutually exclusive; in fact, they are often in perfect harmony. Gravity is simply the means which God designed to keep us on this earth and to provide a balance in the universe for planetary cycles.
"He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing." Job 26:7
Evangelical said 05/25, 04:21 PM
"God and science are not mutually exclusive"? That's where we differ. According to physics, you can predict EXACTLY what a body will do if you know all the variables, and I disagree. You can only predict what it might do if it please Him.
I remember, they taught physics at BJU, but they required us to write, "If it please Him," at the end of a solution. I CAN live with that. But the suggestion that we can know exactly how physical bodies will behave is brazen, and a little scary; it scoffs at His power, and invites His wrath.
Ariyel said 05/25, 07:40 PM
Yes, if He so chooses, God can override the natural laws that govern our universe. That however does not demonstrate gravity does not exist. Nobody has said they can predict EXACTLY what a body will do given the variables. Using physics equations you can provide a general idea as to what any given object will do in certain circumstances, but chaos theory always comes into play and you can never give an exact prediction of anything.
What science discovers is simply the means by which God accomplishes something. By that same logic then bodily systems do not upkeep life in the physical body and are completely useless; why have them?
Evangelical said 05/26, 03:03 PM
I guess you guys are losing me when you say things like, "God can break the rules," OR, "makes exceptions to the rules."
Gravity is a physical "law" - as true, as far as scientists are concerned, as anything you'll ever see, and thus, it can't be defied by ANYTHING. You agree that God can do whatever he wants, but you say gravity is true. Can you see the hypocrisy here? Are you a selective believer?
Chaos theory is a science, just like physics; it has nothing to do with GOD. Either you believe that the world is governed by the simple mechanics of a ball rolling down a hill, or that the World is governed by Him, in His way, which may sometimes RESEMBLE a simple pattern so as to make His miracles seem that much greater.
Vote for me - "NO" on gravity!
Ariyel said 05/26, 03:54 PM
You are confusing the natural world with the supernatural God. Gravity is a natural law for the natural world. God, as a supernatural entity can break these laws as He wishes - after all, He created them. Another example would be time and space. We are restricted to "time" and "space" as we know it, whereas the omnipresent God is not.
I am not a selective believer; if you read my profile, I am a fundamental Baptist. I agree that God is sovereign over all and created our universe in a balance, governed by natural laws. God created weather patterns (Ecclesiastes 1:6), ocean currents (Psalm 8:8b) and gravitational force (Job 26:7, Genesis 1:14). God is the Creator and sustainer of all. Even He operates by basic laws He set upon Himself (cannot lie, cannot die, cannot sin, does not change, etc.).
Sir Isaac Newton, a Christian theologian and scientist credited with the discovery of the three laws of motion and universal gravitation stated, "Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done." He had no problem with God's establishment of gravitation and neither do I.
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You are a f*cking loon. First of all, if you found an envelope full of money, you were legally (and morally) obligated to turn it into the police. God didn't magically created that envelope; someone dropped it. Second, you are out of your mind. There is not a shred of evidence that God exists, and even if "He" did, that does not mean that the phenomenon we call "gravity" is not real. Your point is nonsense.
DonkeyDude | 05/24/08
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Is this Elizabeth's phantom account? All the randomly-placed CAPS make you seem even crazier than your inane "argument."
DonkeyDude | 05/25/08
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Even if she did have a phantom account, I'd think she'd still slip up and drop Nader on accident. Alot of people like to randomly CAP word to provide emphasis or shout the word. then they look back and realize it's hard to read it.
MorgMcA | 05/25/08
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"You are a f*cking loon" - Harsh DD. I disagree with your statement concerning evidence of God, but that is another debate (and one that probably wouldn't go anywhere). However, I am in complete agreement with your opinion on the envelope of money - it should have been turned in.
Ariyel | 05/25/08
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Thanks for the input, DonkeyJERK. Funny how people like you who probably preach tolerance don't know HOW to exercise it themselves. If God doesn't exist, who gave me THE money? Who would just drop money like that? Besides, I'm not even saying that someone didn't drop it, but that it was His will. GO Nader.
Evangelical | 05/25/08
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I was just kidding about Nader, but DD, how do you know someone dropped it? You weren't there.
Evangelical | 05/25/08
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No phantoms, we are each different enough to believe reality exists, and that gravity exists. I told a young man, whose age I guessed as "21" and he was surprised and said, "YES," I am 21. Sitting outside a nice grocery, Whole Foods, which has wrought iron cafe tables, told him I am an artist trying to career change to net tangible results. He suggested a shop across the street, which I looked down on and said so. I said, "you are supposed to expect payment for art that is worth money, not just because you chose to paint a picture and demand payment." He sat back, and, youthful diligence of questioning such gradiose authority (I thought the paintings in the shop window were an embarassment, in the extreme and an offense to serious artists and the public), "Supposed To?" I liked the hint of sarcasm and understood he was saying "supposed to" doesn't exist. Anything goes. Youth would like to believe. The conversation had been preceded with politics and Iraq. Moving forward, I said, "YES, SUPPOSED TO EXISTS." And, I lifted a set of keys into the air, and said, IF I dropped these and they did not fall to the ground, would you not be upset?" He shrugged, reluctant allowed maybe some supposed to exists, with his silence. We continued the conversation well enough, and, of course, as a mother of a 29 and 31 year old, and the issue of the military, and his sitting there enjoying the sunshine and food, which I had insisted to my two is their right also, we knew there are American soldiers in Iraq who would like and prefer to be home, and some who are dead. I did not belabor the issue. We had a good theoretical discussion, and some common ground, including the right to challenge and disagree, both of us held it dearly and it was good. Cheers to this, but, gravity? Yes, I sure do believe it exists. And, my theology, currently buddhist, is that outcome foreseeable, dictates and is the cause of choice of actions. I have been told, "That is Tibetan Buddhism." To me, it is common sense. But, I believe and I like it, and view it as practical, not magic.
Elizabeth | 05/25/08
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Oh yes, I dropped the keys suggesting when I let go, if they did not drop, I believed he would be very upset. The keys fell straight to the ground. Newton at least would be happy with that. They 21 year old was silent, but, frankly, I suspect, happy with that, also.
Elizabeth | 05/25/08
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Elizabeth, your long-winded anecdote about dropping your keys is irrelevant. Yes, we'd all expect your keys to fall, but if, for whatever reason, God DECIDES they should fly up into the air, then it will happen. Your "gravity" says that this IS impossible. You're essentially saying that God or Buddha or whoever can't interact with our world as He pleases. That He's powerless in our lives. Pardon me for thinking your crazy.
Evangelical | 05/25/08
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So Ev, can you show us one instance where something happened in a way other than how science predicted it, presumably because of God's will? Like, did you ever drop an eraser and it flew up into the sky? And Ariyel makes a perfect point in his second argument. Why does God bother to give me a heart and kidneys and sh*t? Why not just snap his fingers and I dance around like a zombie in Thriller?
majestik | 05/25/08
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Gotta say Evan, yes it's possible, but that's the exception to the rule. just because they're an exception doesn't mean the rule doesn't exist, and it would make sense for God to be a God of order, by setting up general rules for the physical world to abide by.
MorgMcA | 05/26/08
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I myself go to Church occasionally, and have went to private Catholic school for about...9 years total, not counting the three years of christian based school in England, but I have to say that I'm the most perplexed when it comes to God. I agree with Morg, God created a universe that contains physical laws. He himself created a universe which has a law of gravity. For him to do something that goes against gravity as you stated, does not mean we are bound to the Earth by magic.
theyoungdem | 05/26/08
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There is also no conclusive proof that the universe isn't controlled by the invisible flying spaghetti monster.
Tickers | 05/26/08
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And to answer the "heart and kidneys paradox" - those are our bags of magic.
Evangelical | 05/26/08
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This debate has even less intellectual merit than the conspiracy theory posts. I will debate anybody about the validity of any organized religion. Welcoming challenges from Evangelical, JWise, etc.
DonkeyDude | 05/26/08
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I appreciate the offer, DD, but I'll be moving on from here. Anyone, please feel free to use my profile. Email is fakeevangelical@gmail.com, password is celticsin7.
Evangelical | 05/26/08
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Please keep it clean. Bad words will get filtered, and offensive comments will be removed.
Only Axl Rose remains in the group, but since 1987 GnR has been rocking with fury
More than 50 years of cover stories about the 35th President
You have got to be kidding me, evangelical
theyoungdem | 05/24/08
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