Rotovia PhD won the Face Off.

lovejones vs Rotovia PhD

Obama-button
Face Offs: 8
Wins: 1
Losses: 7
Ties: 0
No City, XX
All Face Offs
10
Votes
Clinton
Face Offs: 3
Wins: 2
Losses: 1
Ties: 0
No City, XX
All Face Offs
12
Votes

THERE IS NOT ONE CLINTON SUPPORTER THAT SHOULD VOTE REPUBLICAN COME NOVEMBER!!!!!


These Clinton supporters voting republican have to be the most unintelligent, stupid, individuals in the country. There is absolutely no reason for these people to vote republican out of spite to Obama or the DNC. If they do vote republican and McCain receives the presidency they are going to regret it in about 2 years, when they see that nothing has changed and they share none of the same values with him. It is going to be their faults for being stupid, and selfish. What about the war in Iraq, and healthcare? If they vote for McCain, they better not ever complain about a hospital or doctor bill. This is what they asked for just out of spite, the thought of it is awful and ridiculous.


Excuse me? "We are the most stupid voters in the country" and you accuse us of being divisive? Do you honestly believe that voters are not entitled to so fundamentally disagree with disenfranchising voters, Obama's policies or credentials that they can choose who they voter for? The only duty a vote owes is to their own conscience.

Furthermore, Clinton supporters have pushed harder and for longer to obtain a viable healthcare system within the United States, so your claim is ludicrous. One matter Obama supporters need to realise is many of Senator Clinton's supporters were independents or previously disillusioned Democrats who backed Senator Clinton's version of classical liberalism, and do not necessarily ideologically agree with social liberalism. These voters are likely to find themselves more aligned with progressive libertarians within the Republican Party. At the end of the day, there is only one man who holds the duty to unite the Party and that man is Senator Obama. If he truly cares about party unity, then he and his supporters will graciously extend there arms to Clinton's camp and not turn against them because they have won. It will be a good lesson to White House.


Don't quote me incorrectly I didn???t say Clinton voters are stupid, what I did say is that Clinton supporters voting for McCain are stupid. Obama???s policies and credentials are almost identical to Clinton. My claim about healthcare is far from ludicrous, it doesn???t make logical sense to vote for McCain if you have the same view as Clinton about healthcare. McCain doesn???t even care about healthcare, let alone universal healthcare, he thinks it???s your own responsibility to provide it for yourself. As far as your comment about Obama being the only one to unite the party by graciously extending his arms to the Clinton camp, what do you think has transpire since she gave her Concession speech, there are many supporters who have jumped on the Obama wagon, and a lot of the Clinton camp has done the same. You speak as though they are being rejected. At the end of the day if you are voting for your candidate based on issues and issues alone, and not because you just like them as a person; then there is no reason a Clinton supporter should vote McCain. That just means you want another four years of a president that doesn???t agree with anything you fight for, be it the war ending, or healthcare


A voter is not stupid when the disagree with you. There is a worrying trend of entitlement among Obama supporters, who do not stop to think that whilst one candidate enjoyed the support of disillusioned Democrats, independents and Republicans that their candidate would receive this support by divine right.

The problem with your arguement, is that the Clinton camp has begun supporting Obama, Clinton herself gave him a glowing endorsement; this is the action of a unifying force, not one of division. Yet, many Obama supporters spit in our faces (literally, in many cases) and then complain we aren't walking lock and step with them.

"At the end of the day if you are voting for your candidate based on issues and issues alone, and not because you just like them as a person; then there is no reason a Clinton supporter should vote McCain" unless those supporters happen to be Republicans, libertarians or the host of diverse individuals Senator Clinton pulled together. There are millions of voters who have every right not to support a candidate who does not share their ideological views, and Obama is not entitled to their support by default.


I am not saying that Obama is entitled to their vote, what I am saying is I can't think of one issue that Sen. Clinton and Sen. McCain see eye to eye on. Therefore, to me that means that whoever was a Clinton supporter that decides to vote for John McCain decided to do that out of spite, or the only reason they supported Sen. Clinton was because they liked her personality, the fact that she was a woman etc.; not her views on certain issues and what she stands for. As far as saying there were already republicans and independents voting for Clinton, the same was happening for Obama; they both had people voting across party lines. Which I believe is truly tainted on both ends because of Rush Limbaugh's little plan to seek havoc on the Democratic Party during the primary season, that many republicans admitted to participating in. You can Google it and find stories in almost every state of republicans going out voting for Hillary during the primary season.
http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_031208/content/01125108.guest.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-k-wilson/mississippi-limbaugh-ef_b_91112.html?view=print \


Thank you for proving my argument, some Clinton supporters are Republican and without the candidate who shares their views, there is no reason for them to vote for Obama. To state that "the only reason they supported Sen. Clinton was because they liked her personality, the fact that she was a woman etc" is offencive, and would have been unacceptable to say about Senator Obama. Many Clinton supporters have backed her since her initial moves towards the Governance in Arkansas and voted for the candidate they believed could best deliver votes.

Furthermore, Clinton's major support base within the party comes from classical liberals and economic democrats, to whom Obama's policies are not compatible.

There are millions, not just one, Clinton supporter who due to being disenfranchised by the DNC, because they are ideologically not aligned with the social liberalism of Obama, because they believe he cannot and will not deliver, or because, like me, they have supported Senator Clinton since she was First Lady of Arkansas and simply do not wish to support anyone else. That isn't spite, that's a democratic choice.

As an educated black man, I can assure you that Obama is OUR candidate.

Comments

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Donkey

Give me a break, Rotovia. Obama did not "disenfranchise" any voters, his policies are largely identical to Clinton's (especially as compared to McCain), and his credentials, frankly, are not that different from Clinton's. I agree wholeheartedly with lovejones.

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Giuliani

The fact is that all the polls showed Clinton beating McCain nationally and in all the swing states, Obama narrowly beat McCain and even lost in some swing states. Hillary had more votes than Obama The DNC took 4 Clinton delegates in Michigan and gave them to Obama, who wasn't even supposed to have any delegates because he deliberatly took his name off the ballot. The DNC slapped 2.3 million voters in the face, especially the Clinton voters, and instead of listening to the people, those 30 people on the Rules comitee thought they had the better idea, but i don't know why the Clinton supporters should suport the Dems in November, hell there votes will probably be thrown away then too. And cut the unity crap, comletly shunning the michigan and florida voters and then asking for their votes in november is a pretty idiotic strategy if you ask me. And Hillary has much more to offer than Obama. Obama wasn't in the White House for 8 years as the wife of a successful President, he wasn't fighting as hard for Health Care as Hillary was.

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Elephant

Ha! its too late. Clinton supporters (at least most of them) have crossed the floor. They will not vote for Obama. The similarity of Clinton and Obama's policies does not mean that Obama will automatically earn Clinton's votes. There is more anger than reason now between the voters of the two camps. Obama victory has delayed Clinton's Presidency and that will never be forgiven by any of the ordinary Clinton sympathisers. All of them hope He loses so they can regroup for 2012. If he wins in November, she can only forget about it. So do they give it to him for the sake of the party? or do they block his presidency for her sake? you decide.

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Elephant

I vote for Roto

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Donkey

Dirty, I agree with your comment above. But I don't see why that would preclude a vote for lovejones.

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Tancredo

November is a long ways away, while i agree that there are reasons that would encourage her supporters to vote across party lines i don't think that anger over her loss will be the foremost crossover issue

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Obama-button

@dirty, McCains victory would still delay her presidency, and she could regroup in 2012 so what is your point for that comment? If Obama wins in November, how can she forget about it? She could still run in 2012, not every president stays for 2 terms.

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Hat

well, lovejones, i do agree in part with you. most of the clinton voters that are threatening to turn republican are just doing so out of spite. However, your title fails you. Certainly, there are some Clinton supporters that maybe should switch their votes. Health care and the Iraq war are not everything that concerns them and there were ideological differences between the two candidates. Also, for an Obama supporter to just assume that his candidate is automatically deserving of someone else's vote is unfair.

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Donkey

Ooh.. good point, Skipper. Ironic that I overlooked lovejones' self-imposed limitation with the choice of subjects, as that's usually what I attack..

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Hat

yeah i was a little surprised you hadn't commented on it. probably just overlooked it. haha.

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Obama-button

For the most part Clinton shares the same ideological views as Obama so if you are a true supporter of Clinton, I don???t see why you would vote McCain come November especially since she endorsed him. Please tell me one thing McCain and Clinton share ideological views on? Skipper the reason why I bought up healthcare and the war in Iraq is because those were the main issues she spoke about the whole primary season other than the economy and bringing jobs back to blue collar voters, which all three candidates promise. Many people that do support Clinton do so because of her views on healthcare. The only thing I remember McCain and Clinton agreeing on was the Gas Tax Holiday, in which Obama opposed the idea.

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Donkey

Lovejones: I agree 100% with your sentiment, but when you phrase the debate topic so forcefully, you raise the bar very high for yourself. The burden you created for yourself in this debate is demonstrating that not a single person who supported Clinton should now support McCain. All Rotovia has to do now is show how even one single person could reasonably do that. Nit-picky, but this IS a debate site..

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Vote

Here's something that we all need to keep in mind: Obama DOES NEED her support, whether people want to admit it or not. There are places where she simply has a strangehold, and he's going to need her support, and the support of the people behind her, to make this work out for the party. However, if a Clinton supporter votes for McCain, out of spite (which I REALLY THINK some will do), then that's even worse. People need to be able to make an informed, and educated decision when they hit the polls, and I think what lovejones is saying is for a Hillary supporter to do just that (make an informed and educated vote), it would make sense to do what's best for the Democratic Party, and that would be to support Obama.

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Libertarian

I wasn't going to write on this as I assumed everyone would say yes... ...but thats not the case... You may have prefered Hilary to Obama that's fine no problem with that but surely you can't support the democrat candidate and be a republican? So logically you second preference democrat would be the only alternative? If you disagree you must be racist cos the only logical reason that would make a person vote for clinton over mccain and not obama over mccain is skin colour, and to abandom polical ideology over skin colour is a little pathetic and discriminatory!

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Tancredo

Stee how can a person switching votes over skin color be logical, that doesn't make sense at all. there are a plethora of issues that people vote on, and here in America alot of them are not-platform issues. Hillary dug her own grave by stating that she is more experienced than Obama, because people quickly see McCain has more experience than the two of them put together. Barak has shown an ability to work with MoveOn.org, whereas many democrats see McCain's ability to work across the aisle as comforting, and evidence that the nation won't be tossed from one extreme to the other. The only thing Barak has accomplished as a very junior senator is to grab some pork for Illinios, people see someone completely different in McCain and his legislative accomplishments. this isn't a choice of skin color, don't endorse simpletonism.

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Clinton

Yes, as a black man I am clearly racist by choosing not to make race a factor in my choice. For the record, Senator Clinton, like President Clinton before her, enjoyed the support of working-class Republicans who were socially moderate. This support fell away when Gore and Kerry ran because many of these voters were endorsing the economic policies of President Clinton and the stability it provided, whilst still maintaining an ideological link to the Republicans.

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Neutral

I don't really understand Rotovia's last argument at all.

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Vote

I do understand it, but I don't believe it for a second. Do you REALLY THINK that a majority of supporters are thinking that, if they choose to vote McCain?? I doubt that, brother. I seriously do. Now, you might, but I still see people voting for McCain, over Obama, as a decision being made out of spite, and not because they share or relate to his views, his ideas, or his policies.

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Clinton

Don't call me brother, we're not related. I like how Obama supporters decide what we're thinking.

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Obama-button

That's weird when I last checked on this debate it was about 30 minutes left of voting and I was up by two, but I guess you can get 3 votes in less than 30 min. Oh no worries, I don't care about my record on here anyway.

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