ELEPHANT-DONKEY.com

Donkeydude the statement that Hillary and Bill feel the election was stolen from them is not a viable argument, never have they been quoted as saying that. That is clear Obama propaganda, and has no background and no evidence to back it up. It's a smear. And Al Gore can go move to the north pole for all i care! If he can't do his job and Hillary does it better than him, Oh well! that's his problem not hers. Those comments in your 2nd paragraph have no basis to them and are not viable arguments in this debate.

Cnd | 06/17/08

You're free to believe that, Cnd. But if you were to totally discredit whatever points you disagree with, you're still left with several very valid reasons why Obama/Clinton is not "perfect." I.e., I win.

DonkeyDude | 06/17/08

Ok, not perfect, you're right. There are more valid arguments than that one, but just remember that that specific argument is not valid, but you now have my vote.

Cnd | 06/17/08

Much as I adore the Clintons (oh, the irony!!) I think they behaved very badly during the nomination process and for that reason alone, I don't think Obama should offer the VP to Hillary (wouldn't it be fantastic if he offered it to Bill?! (permissable under the Constitution?)) The simple fact is that Obama MUST go for a balanced ticket and that means balanced in terms of race as well as geographical area (such things matter in America!). He needs a white male on the ticket, not a power-obsessed woman!

mjb22 | 06/19/08

Not permissible under the Constitution. I agree with the rest of your comment though.

DonkeyDude | 06/20/08

Insulting Clinton is not an argument, there are ways to express frustration without completely putting someone down, like you did in your first sentence mjb. Enough of the "power-obsessed woman" stuff Obama supporters always spew out. They have both run great campaigns that went one for MORE THAN A YEAR. They aren't running for city council, they are running to become President of the United States. Give her a break if it seems like she's clinging onto her hopes a bit. Imagine being in her position.

Cnd | 06/20/08

Cnd - with the greatest of respect, I will express myself as I see fit! You write: "Imagine being in her position". What position? The position where one has a total inability to recognise when the game is up? The position where she, despite knowing that the writing was on the wall, prefered to continue splitting the Democratic Party in order to continue an ego-trip? The position where she had to begin to spend her own money to finance her flagging campaign including "attack-ads" where she implied that the nation's children would only be safe with her as President? I'm a supporter of the Clintons - you have no idea how much so - but mature politics is about knowing when to retire gracefully and retain some dignity in the process!

mjb22 | 06/20/08

go mjb!

democratdreamteam08 | 06/20/08

DemDreamTeam, do you really expect me to think that the sudden huge surge of votes (100% for you) on both of our debates is legit?

DonkeyDude | 06/20/08

While I think DD's "total ****" and philandering husband argument are totally unnecessary, rude, and (as far as the latter is concerned) irrelevant, DDT - your "new baby"/"older child" analogy is painful and laughable. I was about to cast my vote for DD bc his argument is clearly stronger, but I can't given the unnecessary jabs at Hillary and her overexposed marriage. Waiting to see what comes next.

thurgood | 06/20/08

Thurgood - you can't honestly say that the jabs are unnecessary or irrelevant. The negatives of Hillary and Bill, both as individuals and as a couple, will surely be a factor in the minds of a number of voters. That goes directly to the issue of whether her addition to the ticket would be "perfect."

DonkeyDude | 06/21/08

mjb, it doesn't make you look good, and doesn't look like you have a strong argument when the basis of your argument is that you go so far as too insult personally one of the candidate. By her position, i mean the fact that for most of the time when Obama was winning she still had more superdelegates on her side, she was the more electable candidate and that she is running for the presidency, this is not something you can just shrug off and say, oh well next time. And may i remind you, while supposedly she should've gotten out, she was still WINNING primaries, Indiana, Kentucky, West Virginia, Puerto Rico, South Dakota, and usually in these ones, was smashing Obama 65-35. She is running for the toughest job in the world, and if you were her, if think you would have a hard time letting go. Oh, and i don't see how she divided the party, Obama is leading McCain by 6 points in the latest CNN poll. And if you call her and Obama campaigning together division, then what are talking about when you say party unity?

Cnd | 06/21/08

Donkey, it is clear you have a deeply rooted hatred for the Clintons. In fact I've never read anything positive about Hillary or her husband from your posts (correct me if I'm wrong). This is concerning me. On this debate, I have withheld my vote because I don't think its bringing anything new except encouraging the Democrats to be complacent against Republicans. Donkey, should think you are open minded enough to take advice from well meaning members. I believe you need to move on from the Primary kind of debate and talk unity for the sake of the General election. NB: I am in no way suggesting that you agree with the dream team idea, but go easy on the Clintons, they are no longer a threat to Obama, in fact they support him, unless you believe that even their support is a threat. I also think that your continued bashing of the Clintons can influence their supporters to stay away or vote Republican (it has happened before)

POST | 06/21/08

Cnd - firstly, you appear to be so enamoured by Hillary that you cannot see her failings in the campaign or accept that it is legitimate to attack her on the basis of perceived character-failures. The USA has a candidate-based system! It is inevitable that the personality of these candidates will come under scrutiny in the heat of such a campaign. Secondly, you attack me as if I had accused Hillary of some monstrous crime. I did no such thing. Thirdly, you seem to think that it is legitimate for the Hillary camp to attack Obama on the basis of his perceived character-weaknesses (re: aforementioned attack-ad) but not that it is legitimate to place her character under the spotlight. The Hillary attack-ad where she implied that she wold be up working all night ensuring the safety of the nation's children (whilst Obama presumably wouldn't be) was, frankly, a cheap-shot (on bahalf of her, not you, Cnd). Also to champion a candidate on the basis that she had more support from the Superdelagates; well. frankly, this isn't even grown up politics. Imagine the furore that there would have beenif Hillary had taken her campaign all the way to a (brokered) Convention and hd wrested the nomination from Obama on the basis of a victory amongst the Superdelegates! The Democratic Party would never have recovered in time for the election - and thanks to her, it might still not!

mjb22 | 06/21/08

and DonkeyDude, i do not EXPECT you to believe anything, although based on your views on the "Clinton clan", this may say otherwise. People are obviously seeing through your "wafer-thin" argument as simply a bit of Clinton-bashing.

democratdreamteam08 | 06/21/08

mjb i understand that in these sorts of elections people do look at personality, and that is why i am saying you can't possibly say that hillary is obsessive and controlling, because all she is doing is trying to get elected. Obama had said some things to her and other people around him that werent waranted, but that doesn't matter to people, all that matters is bashing hillary. If the Democratic party doesn't win the election, that it their fault, not hillary's, if the people in the party are so incompetent that they can't do their job to get Obama elected that's their fault. It's really easy blaming Hillary, and saying she was the one that screwed the party over, but if Obama really believes in his message of change, and if it's true what the media has been saying about people loving obama, then he will get elected. Today is june 21st, the election is november 4th, hillary must have dropped a nuke on the party if they can't even get Obama elected after that long period of time. What you call Hillary's attacks, some call election advertising. And that 3 a.m. phone call ad, it won her the texas primary didn't it?

Cnd | 06/21/08

DD, I can honestly say that your jabs are unnecessary and irrelevant. You have already made several strong arguments that Hillary is not a "perfect" choice. By attacking her as a "****" and her husband (how is this her fault?) as a philanderer, you cross the line and push away level-headed, fair-minded readers who would agree with you otherwise. (Well, at least one.)

thurgood | 06/21/08

Btw, one man's "****" is some other woman's hero...

thurgood | 06/21/08

i love hillary. but i realize that it is wisest to keep this "dream ticket" a dream. I would love to see her as VP but i realize that every single republican on the planet will use it to undermine obama's campaign to help John Mccain win the general elections. the question is: Can Hillary on the ticket attract enough of her own voting bloc to downplay to independant votes obama will use because of her presence on the ticket?

Mark | 07/19/08

I don't believe Hillary would help Obama at all. During the campaign, she contradicted herself so many times, I cannot see how she will be a good, consistant person. First she said she did not support the NRA, then in a speech later described how her father took her to the woods in their backyard and he showed her how to shoot her first gun. What are her stances exactly? I never supported Hillary, and if she were on the ticket, I would have to seriously think about voting for Obama.

Katelyn | 07/22/08