ELEPHANT-DONKEY.com

Oops, my typing is getting worse...here's a version free from appalling grammar... Israel may have once belonged to Palestine just as the USA once belonged to Britain. However wars happen and territories change, it would be ridiculous to say Britain has a claim over the USA just as it is ridiculous to say Palestine has a claim over Israel. Firstly, the Jewish culture had been persecuted to inhuman levels by the Nazis and as such needed a new home and Israel, their holy lands where already in a civil war, so in an attempt to stop further fighting and give Jewish people a home Israel was formed. Whether this intervention was morally justified does not change the fact that it happened and western cultures cannot go in a re-seize the lands and hand them over to Palestine.

Stee_theliberal | 06/19/08

By your very own argument we should not have seized the land from the Palestinians and handed it over to Israel.

Rotovia PhD | 06/19/08

Umm... I pretty sure the Isrealis don't need us to hand over any land in Palestine, especially land that we never took over.

MorgMcA | 06/19/08

Well is this not a racist statement? Just because your are a Palestinian you should have no rights in Israel reading your previous posts I find this highly shocking. Israel is a apartheid state, there are currently war crimes being committed by Israel onto the people of Palestine but they do not get news coverage, as a dying Muslim does not make the news unless their doing something negative. Food parcels are being blocked by Israel into Palestinian refugee camps. Israel is pointing nuclear missiles at Iran, and many other countries in the middle east, yet its existence is not challenged. Palestinians have enough right to that land as Israel, they were expelled from the land in the 40s and 50s by foreign powers, however the jewish community are embedded into Israel. The problem is not with Jewish people, the problem is not with Muslims, both sides are willing to sit down and negotiate, instead the problem lies with Zionism, they want to reclaim all of Israel which includes parts of Egypt.

Not Sure | 06/20/08

"Israel for the Israelites!" as far as I am concerned this is a racist statement. Forget about the Palestinains, there only dying, being discriminated against and loosing their land.

Not Sure | 06/20/08

If you'll remember they had land in the original settlement. Jerusalem was also neutral territory but after various wars and skirmishes (which both sides had a hand in). The Egyptian president Anwaar Sadat, who recognised Israel's right to exist and signed a peace agreement, was assassinated and Egypt was expelled by the Arab League. By all means point out the appalling human rights violations inside Israel, but to ignore the Palestian's actions is to ignore half the arguement.

Miral150 | 06/20/08

I am not denying the actions of Palestine, however this argument is based on the fact that Palestinians have no rights in the lands of Israel. Diplomacy is unlikely to work, Israel will not back down it is ran by Zionist elitists. To totally exclude a persons right simply because they are a Palestinian is a crime. Therefore militant actions are taken as a last resort. But lets not forget among these militant actions Israels retaliations are not exactly justifiable, in 2006 the bombardment of Lebanon (which was carried out mainly by air and killed more civilians than militants) was a prime example of how Israel is forcing out any chance of a peace between the two waring sides in the conflict.

Not Sure | 06/20/08

Both sides are in the wrong. If diplomacy had been used originally then Palestine may have had some of their land left. The Palestinian militants have also irreparably damaged their own cause by attacking and killing foreign nationals in attacks that had no strategic value.

Miral150 | 06/20/08

Mr. Squire, please don't bring this Israeli Apartheid bullcr*p into the argument, Israel, just like any legal, democratic country can defend itself when attacked. The only war crimes commited in that area are those of Hezbollah and Hamas who, without provocation, and supposedly for their religion, fire rockets into Israel and kill innocent people. Isreal is the only real democracy in the region and has not done anything but defend itself.

Cnd | 06/20/08

Mr. Squire, Palestinians losing their land?! Israel was declared a state 60 some years ago by the U.N. And the fact that you decide to single out what Israel is doing that is bad in the region proves that your motive is anti-semitism. You call discrimination agains any palestinian rascism, but you say nothing about discrimination agaisnt jews.

Cnd | 06/20/08

I'm sorry CND you obviously have some form of reading problem, its ok most idiots do, If you care to look at my other comments "The problem is not with Jewish people, the problem is not with Muslims, both sides are willing to sit down and negotiate, instead the problem lies with Zionism" As quoted from earlier today. Being anti-Zionist is not being anti-semitic, you will find they are many Jewish people themselves who do not advocate the Zionist ideology and oppose it as best they can. You playing anti-antisemitism card just seems to tell me you have an impotent argument, you can not battle me logically so you call me a racist. I believe that the land should be shared and equality brought to the region, but of course asking for equality for a Muslim means I am an anti-Semite. I was pointing out that Israel is not perfect. I aware that many Jews were killed in the conflicts, however this argument is about Israel being superior to Palestine. If it was the other way round I would argue in favor of the Jewish people. There is oppression on both sides, and I believe and please pay careful attention to this EQUALITY. Zionism threatens world peace, (notice i said Zionism CND not Jews). And America's sales of arms to both sides, is not helping, give a man a gun he is likely to shoot. So before America can act like a peaceful mediator to this conflict maybe it should consider STOP SELLING THE WEAPONS WHICH ARE USED IN THE CONFLICT.

Not Sure | 06/20/08

Also i do not consider defense, several artillery attacks on Lebanon, I sort of consider that an offensive move.

Not Sure | 06/20/08

Also I called the comment "Israel for the Israelites" racist because it works on the assumption that Israelites are superior to Palestinians. However I feel calling me a racist was unjustified as I did not think battling FOR equality is racist.

Not Sure | 06/20/08

No Mr S, Israel for Israelis is not saying that Israelis are supieror. It merely means one nation for one nationality. I suppose the refusal to agreee to the existance of Israel as an entity at all, is not in any way a problem native to the region. The rationale Stee presents is, the Israelis have fought 3 wars over the region, against far supieror numbers, and won every time, we might as well recognize their claim to it.

MorgMcA | 06/20/08

Mr.Squire, a country is defendin itself when they retaliate for an attack done to them. They were firing artilley into Lebanon not simply to use the Lebanese people as target practice, but because they defending themselves after they had been attacked. Usually the people who attack first are the ones on the offensive. And an Israeli state does not mean Israelis are superior, wouldn't say one palestinian state is anti-semitic? I don't understand how one stance is discriminatory and the other is "fighting for the palestinian people". As morg said, israel has kicked *ss in many wars even when outnumbered, usually when you win that many times in a row, you would consider yourself the winner. And tell me, do you not think in a one state solution, jews would not be persecuted under a Hamas regime?

Cnd | 06/21/08

Oh, shut up, with your idiot comments, for christ's sake, I didn't call you a rascist. And you tell me i played the anti-semitism card, well didn't you call the proposition of an Israeli state, something I and many people agree with, rascist? So before you acuse me of throwing things out there, why don't you think about what words you use. Zionism in part, is part of the Jewish culture. It is not about "disrupting the world peace" Zionism is the yearning for a return of Isaelis to their "promised" land or homeland, Israel. Does that sound threatning? Zionism has been blown out of proportion to become an a false argument for the other side. Anti-Zionism is against the prospect of Jews, Old and young, black, white, asian, conservative, liberal, living in PEACE. So again, i say anti-zionism is anti-semitism, because you feel you don't want to let the jewish people live in peace! And again i ask: if the land is shared between peace-seeking jews and muslims, and crazy, extremist hamas, hezbollah radicals, do you really believe, jews christians and muslims will have peace in the region. No, the radicals will want the extermination of one group, so that group has to fight back. One state may sound good, but you have to face reality, Israel is the only reliably democratic state in the middle east, why can't we finally preserve that, and give the Israeli people, and the religious minorities living in it their right to independence, liberty and peace?

Cnd | 06/21/08

stee, i support Israel now, as i recognize that time travel is not possible and we can't simply go back and fix the situation. However, one must recognize that those lands were stolen from the Palestinians very recently. And how do you expect any Palestinian to buy the argument that they should have had to give up their lands because the Jews were so persecuted by the Europeans? It wouldn't make any sense to them. After the Ottoman Empire was defeated, Britain had made promises to both the Arabs and the Jews as to who would rule the land. You came through on neither, instead setting up colonial like governments and controlling the region themselves. You even invented the Jordanian nation and people, funny that they had never existed before that. After WWII, you decided to carve up some land for the Israelites no matter the consequences of the native people. Then, like fools, the American govt. decided to get its hands dirty in the situation in coming decades.

Skipper04 | 06/21/08

Well I do not see how opposing Zionism is anti-semitic. On the 2nd of December 2002, 20,000 Jewish people marched on the Israel Embassy protesting an end to Zionism and an end to the Israeli state. Zionism threatens modern day Jewish people, It gives neo-nazis ammunition to attack the Jewish people as a whole, and it has further escalated antisemitism in the east. Zionists give a improper representation of the Jewish people, this has lead to people attacking ordinary Jews, not Zionist's as all Jewish people are being labeled Zionist. Zionism wants to reclaim lands which are currently outside of the current state of Israel by force which includes parts of Egypt, I do not see how that will bring peace to the Jewish community, especially considering the creation of Israel itself has probably led to more antisemitism. I admit that it is too late to give the lands back to the Palestinian people as It will lead to the mass persecution of the Jewish community. However Israel can not exclude Palestinians rights, and neither can Palestine exclude Israel's rights. You are right the land is likely to be a war zone for years to come because of the mass religious heritage the country has. Israel is the democracy, I expect it to act with diplomacy not with hate and retaliation. Lebanon was attacked, it suffered many more civilian causalities than it did Hezbollah casualties, because of the nature of the Israeli retaliation attacks, from the air not from the ground. Palestine is not given a fair deal in this, that is what I am fighting for, the Jewish people have a right to peace as do any other religion around the world. However the Israeli peace comes at the cost of the Palestinians who were expelled from the area around sixty years ago. If Zionism is based on peace from having full "ownership" or sovereignty over the lands of Israel, it has made a big misjudgment, as it has totally excluded the feelings of the Palestinian people, and that is what people get

Not Sure | 06/21/08

continuing on.... angry about. It would be comforting to know that in a few generations the both sides lived in peace and harmony and importantly equality. But with each side wanting to exclude the other, militant factions and western countries throwing fuel on the fire by making profit from the conflict, that all seems like a fairy tale.

Not Sure | 06/21/08

Wolfinstein is gonna need to make an argument or he forfeits doesn't he?

Not Sure | 06/21/08