ELEPHANT-DONKEY.com

The worldwide feminist movement is a series of campaigns by a wide group of men and women who work for change in our society, including women's right to vote, employment for women at more equitable and equal wages, the right to initiate divorce proceedings, and the right to own property. The goals of the movement vary from country to country, from opposition to female genital cutting in Sudan, to helping break the glass ceilings in Western countries. This is what the feminist movement is all about. Not myth. The term glass ceiling refers to situations where the advancement of a qualified person within the hierarchy of an organization is stopped at a lower level because of some form of discrimination, most commonly sexism. According to Census Bureau statistics, the pay gap for full-time workers at all education levels shows women earn 77 cents for every dollar paid to men. I find this a troubling, don't you? It seems to me, that Gloria Steinem,an American feminist icon, journalist and women's rights advocate, founder and original publisher of Ms. magazine, and was an influential co-convener of the National Women's Political Caucus would be a good "horse's mouth" for you to read. This is one feminist's view of the candidacy that explains how dangerous AND unqualified Palin is for the job. The fact that she's a woman is the non-story really. See her LA Times opinion page article http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-steinem4-2008sep04,0,1290251.story Personally, the fact that Palin and I share some chromosomes does not interest me. We should all be focusing only on the candidate's voting record andlegislation records. Please, read for yourself and see what Palin really stands for. And stop taking you pseudo news and cues from Rush Limbaugh and fox, OK??

suzdev | 09/06/08

Suzdev: You technically haven't responded to my initial argument, because you've put your argument in the Comments section. The site is waiting for you to reply. You need to copy your statement and put it in the right place. You might need to condense it, though, due to the character limit.

swdowning | 09/07/08

Suzdev: There are, however, a couple of points you brought up that are not germane to the topic, and so might reasonably be addressed here, though as a general rule, I like to steer clear of the Comments section - at least until the Face Off is over. You say that it is Census Bureau statistics that detail the pay gap between men and women. I say it is the quarterly report of the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics. Here's the link: http://www.bls.gov/cps/earnings.htm#earn. Please provide yours. I also say that when you drill down through the data, it becomes clear that men earn more because they work more, based on the report's Full Time Employment figures. I can expand on that, if you'd like. Also, I had already read Steinem's article, and was less than impressed. Finally, your last sentence is presumptuous and out of line. You presume that I couldn't have formulated my challenge had I not taken my "cues" from sources vilified by you and your ilk. Yet you cite an outside source containing phrases expropriated by you for your comment, so who is taking cues from whom? I'll ignore, for the nonce, your imperious tone, and chalk it up to your misguided impression that you have (either by virtue of your sex or your youth) some right to issue edicts that others are obligated to obey. I don't roll that way.

swdowning | 09/07/08

Woo Hoo! Way to go swd! We've long needed a champion for men - could you be he? Been following your entries here, mate, and have to say that I don't agree with all your statements, but I do like your defense of the male gender. Just wanted to give you props and say "don't give in to the feminist politicuntil we men have earned equality."

bobjerunkle | 09/07/08

SWDowning: I have asked Time to help here. I did enter a rebuttal originally, but the screen froze, and now I can't seem to access the same window. In the meantime, can we continue here? You say that feminists will lose their jobs when women gain equality. First, what feminists are you referring to, exactly? I must reiterate that the worldwide feminist movement is a series of campaigns by a wide group of men and women who work for change in our society, including women's right to vote, employment for women at more equitable and equal wages, the right to initiate divorce proceedings, and the right to own property. There is no one official group, you know. We are all, or should be, for equal and equitable treatment, don't you agree? I think the radio media has perpetuated this myth of angry, bitter women - Limbaugh calls them fema-nazis- but do you know a single one? Most of us are just looking to get equal pay for equal work. The proposed Equal Right Amendment, was simple "Equality of rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex. " Would that not be good for all? Can you deny that American business and politics has been led my wealthy white men for many years, but now, this is changing. Even the Republican convention looked more like a cross section of the USA. Is that not good for all? Following your logic, I guess when cancer and diabetes are cured, the American Cancer Society and American Diabetes Association will be moot too. Wouldn't that be called a success? Yes, I think so.

suzdev2 | 09/08/08

I'm happy to announce that I have finally agreed with SW. I like this debate and your take on it. Suzdev2, submitt your argument on the space allocated for this.

POST | 09/08/08

swd...well thought out message. I like your debating style--you're on the subject and hardly side-track.

Katelyn | 09/08/08

Dear swdowing: Sorry, I can't seem to access the rebuttal initial page at this stage. The glitch continues. May be continue within the comments section? I'd like to understand where you're coming from.

suzdev2 | 09/08/08

just start over, suz part of your problem may be because you now have two different identities on this site.

MorgMcA | 09/09/08

Suzdev, if MorgMcA's suggestion is acceptable to you, we can just let this Face Off languish and I will start another to which only you can reply. We'll just have to trust that this current Face Off will eventually drop off the radar and that those who have voted foe each of us will vote again. How about it?

swdowning | 09/09/08

To save time, I've gone ahead and started the new Face Off. Only you, suzdev, can respond.

swdowning | 09/09/08

Also, thanks to POST and Katelyn for your kind words. Let's all move the debate to the new Face Off I've started to accommodate suzdev's access problems.

swdowning | 09/09/08