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Mark vs Austhus

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New Bedford, MA
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Lawrence, KS
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Michigan and Florida primaries MUST be counted at the Democratic convention.

Mark said 02/18, 04:20 PM
1st reason y the Michigan and Florida primaries should be counted at the democratic convention: In Florida alone more than 1.3 million voters went out and voted. Michigan had like a hell of a lot of people too. Y should we ignore their votes and voices?

2nd reason: The people shouldn't be punished based on politicians mistakes.

3rd reason: Barack Obama is against it only because he knows if they are counted he would lose the democratic nomination.

4th reason: If they aren't counted we are ignoring the will of the people who want Hillary for President.

5th reason: Therefore if Obama gets the nomination, he would win it without the rightful majority, as the democratic process requires.

6th reason: if he does end up winning it would undermine the democratic process since millions of voters were ignored.

7th reason: Only the candidate with the most votes (and therefore delegates) must be chosen as the democratic nominee. If obama wins the nomination and the Michigan and Florida delegates aren't counted he would be destroying the very essence of our democracy.

(note: i'm not anti-Obama or pro-Clinton in fact i hate them both, just fighting for what i think is right.)

Austhus said 02/18, 06:01 PM
I'll take a different approach here: every single one of your arguments make logical sense. Obama doesn't want them counted, Hillary does because she won and it was wrong for the Democratic party to punish both states so harshly, especially given the significance of the state.

THAT BEING SAID, many Democrats in both states did NOT vote in the primary, since they were under the assumption their votes did not count. The decision not to include these states was a highly-reported decision made months ago. The voters in these states, disheartened about the loss of delegates and their vote not meaning anything, stayed home, relative to the rest of the country.

For example, Illinois, a state with 153 delegates to the National Convention, registered more than 2 million votes. Florida, which would have had 185 delegates, registered only 1.7 million votes.

Finally, this isn't a decision Obama or Clinton will make, although they are lobbying for their respective sides. It's a decision Howard Dean and the Democratic party will make. If the party decides to include these states, they should either adjust the delegate counts of each state to reflect national trends or redo both primaries.

Mark said 02/19, 10:35 AM
First off, both candidates didn't campaign there and Hillary still won both. You stated that Florida registered 1.7 democrats, so? that's a good thing in fact democrats in those two states came out in record breaking numbers unlike anything in those state's histories! so the idea that people didn't come because they thought it wasn't going to be counted is ridiculous. And since they came it in record numbers it's important to stress that if we don't count them than we'll be ignoring all those people that did end up voting! that's not what our democracy is supposed to do! every vote counts. Every person has a voice, and no one should be ignored. That is the main point i wanna stress which leads to all my other points. Don't count the votes means ignoring the will of the people, which means someone will be chosen without the actual majority which undermines our democracy.

Austhus said 02/19, 11:44 AM
You miss the point. Yes, 1.7 million votes is a lot. However, if you look at national trends, it isn't NEAR what it should be. In my earlier example, I cite that Illinois, while having roughly 30 fewer designated delegates, still managed to register 300,000 more votes.

That disparity can easily be attributed to apathy from being disqualified. Neither candidate actively campaigned, which means many voter decisions could, conceivably, have been made on misinformation. Many democrats in both states would be irate if, suddenly, these states were allowed to send delegates. Voters who knew their votes wouldn't count stayed home.

If you want a true democracy, let's have a real vote in both of these states where every vote counts, not just the people who don't pay attention to the national media.

Mark said 02/19, 11:50 AM
i don't know if you realized but every year there are a hell of a lot of people who don't vote cuz they're not politically active. and as i stated before people came out and voted in record numbers so obviously no one who cared didnt vote. And since both candidates didnt campaign there shows that it was completely equal. It wouldnt have been equal if one candidate did campaign and the others didnt. but none campaigned. Which means that all those who voted, voted on the information they got. and hillary won both. You also have to consider that the two candidates on the democratic side have had more debates than any other time in history. and those debates has record breaking ratings. so the idea that they were misinformed on the candidates opinions in ridiculous.

so they were informed and they did vote for who they wanted. and obvioulsy they wanted hillary and not obama. atleast the majority. and for those who are politically active(voters) they usually vote for the person who they agree with the most! so again the misinformation arguement doesn't stick.

Austhus said 02/19, 01:17 PM
Voting is an American institution that, when effective, works wonderfully. However, when a vote is declared meaningless months ahead of time, like Florida and Michigan, rational people who recognize it is a waste of time won't go and vote, period.

Lots of people don't go vote due to laziness every year, this is true, but that is a decision based on laziness. Those who chose not to vote in Florida and Michigan primaries did so based primarily on prior declarations of invalidity by the Democratic primary.

Mark, no matter how many times you scream at the top of your lungs, the fact remains that Florida and Michigan voters did not turn out in droves like the all of the other primaries. This is not due to a particularly apathetic public, but due to the decisions of Dean and Co. If they want to count their delegate vote, there should be a new primary contest in each state.

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Authus good points. Also you have to realize that MI and FL were not contested states. Both agreed not to campaign in those states.

Mr. Magoo | 02/18/08

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First off, both candidates didn't campaign there and Hillary still won both. You stated that Florida registered 1.7 democrats, so? that's a good thing in fact democrats in those two states came out in record breaking numbers unlike anything in those state's histories! so the idea that people didn't come because they thought it wasn't going to be counted is ridiculous. And since they came it in record numbers it's important to stress that if we don't count them than we'll be ignoring all those people that did end up voting! that's not what our democracy is supposed to do! every vote counts. Every person has a voice, and no one should be ignored. That is the main point i wanna stress which leads to all my other points. Don't count the votes means ignoring the will of the people, which means someone will be chosen without the actual majority which undermines our democracy.

Mark | 02/19/08

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i accidentally wrote my arguement here srry

Mark | 02/19/08

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You should remember that Obama wasn't even on the ballot in Michigan. I think the DNC's original decision not to recognize the delegates elected in these two states was wrong. Still, seating the delegates without a re-vote would be just as wrong, since most people didn't think the vote would count.

Lib Expat | 02/19/08

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There's talk about redoing both states as caucuses, since they are cheaper to organize can be done on relatively short notices. I would support such a decision, however I suspect the Clinton campaign would likely protest such an action, given her record in previous caucus states.

Austhus | 02/20/08

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Ironically Florida would have had a much bigger influence had the primary been in mid february Even if the delegates were counted it might not change anything. 185 would have been up for grabs in florida if the percentage of vote is translated into delegates that would mean ~95 for hillary and ~63 for obama ~27 for Edwards adding up to 32 delegate gain for hillary. "Best conceivable scenario for Hillary" CNN has Obama up by 142 delegates On march 4th 444 delegates are at stake Hillary wins by 15% in all states she gains 66 delegates On april 22 188 delegates are at stake she wins again by 15% she gains 28 Of the remaining states to vote we can assume that North Carolina, Nebraska, Montana and South Dakota (212 delegates) will lean in Obama's favor while Indiana and Kentucky could go to hillary (115) Mississippi, West Virginia and Oregon (144) would be a good place for Hillary to win but are probably neutral Obama wins by 10% avg. in his states he gains back 21 Hillary wins by 20% avg. in her states she gains 21 also Obama would still be up by 48 delegates. Even if he lost Mississippi, Oregon and West Virginia by 20% he would still have more delegates. If Edwards endorses Hillary and she gains his 26 delegates, Hillary would need wins of 15% in these states or a stronger showing in Obama leaning states to force a tie. If Florida is counted, and she could win these three states by over 10%, the primaries would end in a tie. In order to win the pledged delegate totals Hillary needs to get Edwards' endorsement and for the DNC to decide that Florida's delegates can go to the convention, or for the DNC to decide Michigan's delegates can also go

ProgressiveLiberal | 02/20/08

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