You wrote that the Catholic Church is responsible for more deaths than the regimes of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao combined. Support your claim.
swdowning said 09/23, 01:04 AM
ReVoluTionNow!: You commented in one of the Face Offs that "THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS KILLED MORE PEOPLE THAN HITLER, MAO, AND STALIN COMBINED!" In responding to my challenge you focused on the Spanish inquisition. Given the populations of the areas to which the conquests were directed (which is a function of the times), there is no way that the crusades and the Spanish inquisition came anywhere close to the deaths amassed by Hitler, Stalin, and Mao.
But here's your chance to prove me wrong. I will cite my sources, and so will you, if you want to win this Face Off.
The death toll estimates of the Spanish inquisition range from 3,000 - 32,000. Compared with the Hitler, Stalin, and Mao death toll estimates of 65,000,000 (see my sources, below), you might need to revise your unfounded predilection to view Christianity as the greatest killer in history. ReV, here's your chance. Support your "facts" or admit defeat. But please be man enough to forfeit if you find that you were misinformed.
My sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_inquisition#Death_tolls
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_disasters_by_death_toll
ReVoluTionNow! said 09/23, 10:32 AM
The Roman Catholic Church has been the culprit of unspeakable horrors throughout history. We start our journey of genocide with the beginning of the church. One of the most brutal empires to ever step foot on Earth, The Romans, nationalized christianity and the Catholic Church was born around 313 CE. The church practiced a policy of forced conversion on those who were jews or pagans. If you did not convert you died. Now your argument with WIKIPEDIA truly exposes your ignorance. Any college frowns upon the use of wikipedia for true fact because of its inaccuracy. THEN WE HAVE THE CRUSADES. The catholic church was very unhappy with the fact that Muslims controlled Jerusalem so they sent not one but three crusades into the middle east in which hundreds of thousands died. Now the inquisition is shaky ground. There is no way to have exact numbers. If you think about the fact that millions of people came under the rule of the catholic church and catholic nations during the inquisition you have to think about all of those indiginous cultures who fought to keep their native customs and religions. All of these people were slaughtered. All those who opposed, died.I have lots more
swdowning said 09/24, 01:58 AM
OK, fine. You don't like my source. Here's another that supports my claim:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm#Crusades
That's it. I've given you sources that you can check. I've given you two of them.
You have yet to provide one source that supports your claims.
Now's the time. Do it or concede.
And when you concede, keep in mind that the mainstream voter, "Joe Six Pack," doesn't really care who wins this Face Off. He's likely to vote for McCain, even if you win this debate.
What you have to contend with is the fact that America has been on the right side of history all along. We not only have the right to "impose" our system throughout the world, we have the duty - the obligation - to do so. Freedom is better than slavery. Capitalism is better than socialism. Democracy is better than tyranny. This is the difference between us, the soviets, the Iraqis, the Koreans, the leftists, and the greens. When we move in to a country, its people know that they will eventually be better off, freer and richer.
ReVoluTionNow! said 09/24, 02:50 AM
You use the same argument this nation used when it promoted a policy of MANIFEST DESTINY!We have promoted unsustainable consumerism that is already starting to fall apart as we have witnessed in the recent actions of world markets.I will show you sources, christian soldier. From about 500 until the end of the 15th century,Europe languished in 1000 years of superstitious, plague-ridden ignorance.(One thousand years is the amount of time from now back to the year 1000)All of the old wisdom was systematically blotted out and replaced with Catholic dogma. The church encouraged ignorance among the general populace: Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (1090-1153), the most influential Christian of his time, bore a deep distrust of the intellect and declared "that the pursuit of knowledge, unless sanctified by a holy mission, was a pagan act and therefore vile."The numbers of the atrocities can never be accurately reported because of the conditions in the time period. There was universal ignorance with few people who could even read.
source: http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/kyle_gerkin/objections_sustained/
swdowning said 09/24, 10:49 AM
And manifest destiny, when the result is to increase individual liberty by spreading our way of life is bad because...?
There is objective right and wrong. When the causes of liberty and independence are advanced, that's a good thing. Objectively good. And, being the current superpower, it is not only our right to do so on the basis of our national interest, it is our duty to do so in the interest of bringing freedom to those who have been oppressed.
I'm still waiting for your relative death tolls between the Catholic Church and Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. It's not enough just to base your claim on your agenda-driven anti-religion belief.
You can't tolerate those who say that there are consequences to our behavior; that there is right and wrong. So you want to blame religion for the world's ills, and a good place to start is by trumping up the wrong-doings of the church by equating it to the deeds of Hitler, Stalin, and Mao. They aren't equivalent, and you haven't yet supported your claim.
ReVoluTionNow! said 09/24, 07:24 PM
You know absolutely nothing about the real history of the United States. There is a wonderful book called,"A Peoples History of The United States." By Howard Zinn. I must have truly offended the Catholic community here. We committed an American Holocaust against indigenous Americans for your god and country. US soldiers gave blankets infected with smallpox to whole villages. There is no way for me to win this debate. I believe that the number of people who died at the hands of Christian Soldiers is more than Hitler,Mao, Stalin. If you are a Christian, there is nothing I can say to convince you because your blind faith in MAGIC will make you totally ignorant to the real truthes of the world.
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Woo Hoo! About frickin' time that someone challenged the smug invention of facts which has become the hallmark of leftist dialog, and by which they daily construct their infamy. Swdowning, the kudos is yours for taking this on, so long overdue has it been. I will do what I can to help, and hereby put on notice any liberal who resorts to unsupportable data in support of his argument. The game is on. Let's roll.
hfitzroy | 09/23/08
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idont know . i was watching this show where this guy was saying that AMerica has been the blame for lots of bad things. its as like we olnly want' to help ouselves. I do'nt who i'm going to vote for here. i like to see how revotulion defend hisself.
sandyconsuelo | 09/23/08
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Look at the protestant reformation. Millions of people broke away from the church because of its brutality. Christianity has periodically silenced intelligent thought in place of ignorance. "God did it" is your usual argument. Your church used to teach that the world was flat, the Earth was the center of the universe and women serve men. I truly believe society would be far more advanced if it was not handcuffed by the ignorance of religion. The same people who threatened the life of Galileo are the same now who oppose gay marriage and believe in "intelligent design"
ReVoluTionNow! | 09/23/08
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i have to agree with revolution re: wikipedia. so much for your smug invention of facts being a leftist hallmark.
Pandora | 09/23/08
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I totally agree. Wikipedia is a COPOUT for real research.
ReVoluTionNow! | 09/23/08
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One thing I think is funny is how Rev has still not provided any sources whatsoever. Maybe he should focus on answering the question before his rebuttal, no?
RockmanHalo | 09/23/08
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Yeah you know because the catholic church kept so many records of the people it killed in the dark ages. There were guys with computers making reports in the year 1200. I personally believe they have killed just as many people. You cant pin down the number from times when there were few written records other than church and government propaganda. This guy has wikipedia as his reference. By the way i think there are alot more important issues in the world then how the media treats video games. The catholic church has a record of cover ups. Why must you defend your christian atrocities?
ReVoluTionNow! | 09/23/08
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Arnold Aimery, the Papal Legate at the siege of Beziers, ordered his men: "Show mercy neither to order, nor to age, nor to sex....Cathar or Catholic, Kill them all... God will know his own....". King Richard summarily had 2,700 Muslims executed at Acre when he thought Saladin was stalling and Saladin responded in kind killing all of his Christian prisoners. King Philip arrested 15,000 Templars on Oct 13, 1307. ( a Friday ) Some number were tortured, tried and burned at the stake, but the total number that died is unknown. The Dominicus Canus ( Dogs of God ) were created to hunt down and eliminate heretics throughout the known world, but did not keep public head counts. I think it is history of such as this that leads to the emotional condemnation of the Catholic Church. Not totally unfair historically but since the numbers cannot always be verified it is clear that one cannot argue that the Catholic Church was directly responsible for more deaths than all those others. Atrocities committed in the name of some "God" ( yours, mine or theirs )however, account for a significant number more than history can recount.
shaggyMule | 09/23/08
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thank you shaggy mule for your excellent historical references.
ReVoluTionNow! | 09/23/08
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Hitler told Gerhart Engel,"I am a Catholic, and always will be." In Mein Kampf,"Therefore I am convinced that I am an agent of our creator. By fighting off the jews I am doing the lords work." During the 1214 crusade in which a hundred thousand "pilgrims" pillaged 500 towns along their way the Cistercian Abbot thundered,"Kill them all, God will know his own." They then butchered 40,000 surviving men, women and children. Charlemagne conquered 4500 saxon rebels and when they refused to be baptized he had them all executed. The revered Saint Bernard of Clairveux who is immortalized in Dantes Inferno once said,"The pursuit of knowledge,unless sanctified by a holy mission, is a pagan act and therefore vile."
ReVoluTionNow! | 09/23/08
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Wait a minute here, which side of this debate gets to count the 6,000,000 Jews Hitler disposed of? It certainly was not by order of the Catholic Church even though Hitler claimed to be Catholic. Protestants have been known to make a crispy critter or two out of what they considered to be Catholic Heretics and vice versa during the back and forth between Queen Elizabeth and Queen Mary. Our own good Protestants in Salem managed to do in a few in Gods name, although on a pretty paltry scale compared to the Crusades and the Inquisition.
shaggyMule | 09/23/08
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Pope Pius was completely complacent with the the nazi war crimes that were being committed. One of the most powerful instiutions in the world never came out and defied Hitler until after the war was over. Many catholic followers did much to help hide Jews. But the Catholic Church itself ignored the atrocities. In Yugoslavia during WW2, Catholic Archbishop Stepinac worked in the Nazi dictatorship of Ante Pavelic. Pavelic exterminated a quarter million in his country alone. The Archbishop had regular meetings with the pope. To some degree the blood is on Pius' hands. He could have called on all catholics to condemn the Nazis.
ReVoluTionNow! | 09/23/08
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Geez. Why does everybody hate christianity? People kill people, get over it.
RockmanHalo | 09/23/08
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Rev I don't agree with you. Look at the wonder of the Catholic Church. Are you saying that Pope John Pual the 2nd was like Hitler. Get a life.
jpobama | 09/23/08
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This debate seems largely irrelevant as there are very few accurate depictions as to the death tolls of the Stalin regime and the total counts from the Crusades, aside from extrapolated estimation.
qbpuck321 | 09/23/08
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Which one destroyed the most cultures?: Christianity. Which one destroyed more people?: Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and people who become adjusted to the fact that causing suffering is just a means to and end, namely their power. Which caused more suffering?! Why do you need to know? They were both bad, but the latter is dead and the former is being (I hope) ignored now. It doesn't matter. Both caused frustration, rage, and despair because of their ruthless means and/or ends and/or ignorance.
CorruptAbramoff | 09/23/08
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Or, maybe mocked in many cases [Christianity], which is good too.
CorruptAbramoff | 09/23/08
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I really agree with Revolution's stance here. However, I don't think he can win this argument purely based on proving the number of deaths. However, I would like to see a debate on religion in general. I think religious differences and a lack of tolerance have resulted in many, many, many of the world's problems today. So many people have died over religion. However, religion does instill good values and create good social control to billions across the globe. The question is- Would the world be better off without religion? That's tough. Anyone want to debate it?
College Mind | 09/23/08
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Please keep it clean. Bad words will get filtered, and offensive comments will be removed.
Only Axl Rose remains in the group, but since 1987 GnR has been rocking with fury
More than 50 years of cover stories about the 35th President
It sounds to me that ReVoluTionNow! has bought into the myth that western civilization has hurt mankind more than it has helped. Seems as though he's a recent college grad. I'd give him a few years, but in the meantime, I'll give swd my vote.
stumeade | 09/23/08
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