Rich people should pay more in taxes than the poor.
College Mind said 09/24, 12:44 AM
I've read arguments that our tax structure is a re-distribution of wealth. I must have missed where the extra taxes the rich pay are placed in checks made out to the poor. Sure there are programs to help the poor that give them assistance in getting by. These programs are absolutely necessary. Some people abuse welfare, but that doesn't mean the 90% of honest folks who are struggling to get by should be denied help. In case you don't know, not everyone in the US is born with the same opportunity. Rich folks should pay more in taxes because they can.
Most of the extra money rich people pay in taxes goes towards defense spending, interest on our national debt, and roads anyway. Most rich people are rich because they own a business, where they have employees, that do work, for much, much less money then the boss gets. The owner gets rich off of the labor.
In America, minimum wage gets you about $13,500 a year before taxes. A person making this amount will never be able to climb out of poverty. Paying the same tax rate as the rich would hurt them even more. So many people are at a disadvantage in society because they are born into minimum wage households that can't afford anything.
MorgMcA said 09/24, 02:57 PM
On one point I agree w/ you. "some people abuse welfare, but that doesn't mean the 90% of honest folks who are struggling to get by should be denied help." But after that I don't really agree w/ anything
I don't believe that Gov is the tool we need to address the ailings of the poor. I don't want a bureaucrat determining who gets ladelled soup and who doesn't. I want someone who actually cares about the welfare of the people he's serving, and because he actually cares, he also has a keen eye for fraud. Yes, I'm referring to private charities
You seem to lack a basic grasp of capitalism and the risk of the entrepeneur. Many business's are unsuccessful, I suppose their owners are rich and should be taxed disportionately as well
In America, we have the land of opportunity, where an uneducated scottish coal miner making minimum wage can become the richest steel tycoon in the world. sure such instances don't happen all the time, but they do happen. Why should we penalize those who make the american dream happen
minimum wage households can afford basic education, w/ student loans they can afford higher education and that's not nothing, that's potential for class mobility
College Mind said 09/24, 06:54 PM
The poor live paycheck to paycheck. In most instances it gives them no opportunity to advance or accumulate wealth. The rich however have extra money, that they earned or inherited. The extra money skimmed off the top will mean they have to settle for a slightly less expensive luxury car. Whereas for the poor, extra money skimmed off the top means choosing which bills not to pay. Electricity? Rent? Hospital bills? Food? Those are tough choices that nobody should have to face. Moving to a flat tax bracket would force millions to do just that.
Poverty in America is a social problem. The answer for a social problem is not an individual solution (work harder). Instead, the answer is a social solution. We can debate all day about what that solution should be, but telling people to simply "work harder" is not the solution. Albeit sound advice.
I never suggested anything close to your accusation that unsuccessful business owners should be taxed disproportionally.
Many people in my family own very successful businesses, (grandparents, mom, step dad, ant, uncle). Hopefully I will one day too. I sympathize with being successful. With power and money comes responsibility.
MorgMcA said 09/25, 12:26 AM
I live paycheck to paycheck, w/ no room for savings, yet I'm still able to go to school full-time, now this also means that I work full-time. I know many of my community college colleages are in the situation. Yes, we grimace when we see how much we pay in taxes and imagine other uses for it, but paying taxes is a form of patriotism, and we're glad that at least we're doing our part in a small way
What is not patriotic is to demand that more money be taken out of the economy. Precisely because richer people have more money, they have more ability to help the economy grow and a greater ability to promote entrepeneurial ability
Taking that money away limits the entrepenuerial flexibility that has made America the land of opportunity. When gov raises taxes to promote it's own social projects it tries to take over the role of entrepenuer, a role that govs are terrible at
Perhaps the answer isn't an individual one, but gov programs are not the answer. I would like to see greater funding of private charities, organizations that have proven their ability to make a difference, these charities are primarily funded by the wealthy, taxation limits their ability to fund these as well
College Mind said 09/25, 01:31 AM
We obviously have fundamentally different views, i respect that, but I shall proceed. Sure the economy might receive a boost from lower taxes, although you sure wouldn't know it through the Bush tax cuts. Even if you could prove it did, at what cost do small economic benefits happen? AT WHAT COST?
It is at the cost the the poor and the disenfranchised. At the cost of children growing up in the ghettos where statistics say they are more likely to go to jail then graduate from college. The minorities of this country will always remain more poor as a group than whites because they are in large part at a major disadvantage when they are born. Less family wealth, less inheritance, less education, less opportunity, less privilege.
I would much prefer to help the groups struggling and level the playing field for all. Affirmative Action is only the beginning of what is needed. We need to fundamentally change how schools get their money because rich white areas get awesome schools and great teachers and ghetto schools get the new teachers and shotty books. That is not fair. We need to begin to fix the ills of our past (slavery, the slaughter and theft of Native Americans and their land)
MorgMcA said 09/26, 02:57 AM
Ok, so we disagree, that's fine.
I do find it interesting that the ghettos spring up, often times, in the center of the gov's solution. To help the poor many places intentionally built low-cost housing, and directly from these efforts the projects turn from a social-ills-correction program into a hornet's nest of crime, drug use, and gang warfare. I also find it interesting that many inner city schools (which recieve far more funding than suburban schools, yet fail miserably) are turning to private districts to buy out and bail out and the move is actually working
As I understand there are many successful Asians, Hispanics and even Blacks in this country, because they follow the advice of Booker T Washington and live the American dream. Perhaps WEB DuBois advice, legislative gimme cuz i wan it, wasn't very helpful
Why should I be punished for being born white, you make it sound as though because I'm white, I'm better than other people. you and I both know it isn't true and my irish forebearers know it too. do the terms paddywhack and paddywagon mean anything to you? blacks weren't the only ones lynched
Any Indian who can prove that I stole their land can have it back
Comments
Add Your Comment
5%* of $20000** is $1000. 5%* of 200000** is 10000. So a Family of 3 that makes 20000 is actually getting 19000. And a family of 3 that makes 200000 is actually getting 190000. See how a flat rate makes the poor poorer and the rich slightly less wealthy. The taxation rate needs to be on a sliding scale. Starting at a low percent sliding up as wealth goes up. * I used 5% as a general percent and it is not based on any state ** I used these as two generalizations based on me and my family. Currently i make give or take a few 100 20000(combine me and my fiance) and my parents combined make 200000.
AppleFritter | 09/24/08
Report Offensive Comment
wow i am glad my spacing was not used in my first comment. lol o well
AppleFritter | 09/24/08
Report Offensive Comment
When one person pays more than another to gain the benefit of the same shared service, wealth is essentially being transferred from the person paying more to the person paying less. It might as well be in the form of a check from the more wealthy person. That is the definition of wealth re-distribution.
Social Justice | 09/24/08
Report Offensive Comment
AppleFritter, do you consume more of the shared services provided by our government than the family of 3 making $20,000? If you do, is your income the best barometer of that consumption? I assert that the cost of shared services should be tied more tightly to the consumption of those services. A percentage based tax on income is inherently unfair. That written, we do have to be realistic and understand that we must suffer through some inequality to get us out of the mess that we're currently in. Nonetheless, we should recognize it as a temporary, but necessary injustice that we must suffer through while we work to redesign our government according to more just principles.
Social Justice | 09/24/08
Report Offensive Comment
Then tell me, with all of this so-called wealth-transfer, why have the rich gotten richer and the poor gotten poorer since... well a long time ago.
College Mind | 09/24/08
Report Offensive Comment
The rich have gotten richer, but the poor have remained about the same (in inflation-adjusted dollars). See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States. I suspect that the noted divergence is a function of education. People who generate higher incomes are more likely to be the same people who continually seek out new opportunities to expand themselves. This tendency probably accelerates as those individuals build upon your successes. I believe that it's a cultural issue and not something that should be solved by penalizing those who achieve.
Social Justice | 09/24/08
Report Offensive Comment
Ah, ok, this is more of a flat tax debate, sorry, I assumed this was more of a let's increase taxes on the rich to pay for gov programs. rereading your first arguement that becomes clearer, sorry for the misunderstanding. while I'm not neccessarily an advocate of the flat tax, I'm also not neccessarily an opponent either. so here goes.
MorgMcA | 09/24/08
Report Offensive Comment
Not to sink your boat, but Ron Paul does not have a clear record when it comes to race. Didn't he have some old rants against blacks and gays from awhile back? He got donations from StormFront.Org, a really racist site. I do applaud Paul for being independent minded and wanting to really fix Washington, but he's too far out there for me.
College Mind | 09/25/08
Report Offensive Comment
Also, Morg, I started this in response to a comment in one of your debates (I think) about how our tax structure is a re-distribution of wealth. I guess my argument is two-fold. No its not, and it should be kept the way it is AT LEAST (after repealing the Bush Tax cuts), preferably raised a little more on the wealthy.
College Mind | 09/25/08
Report Offensive Comment
ReV, who the bleep cares what any of our avatars look like, I wouldn't choose Kucinich even if I did agree w/ him, his picture makes him look like a perv and as I remember your original avatar was Hugo Chavez, you're not standing on solid ground there.
MorgMcA | 09/25/08
Report Offensive Comment
Well, let this be a lesson to us all: the initial arguments have to be REALLY WELL DEFINED. Try to measure every word, so you're only arguing one thing. Otherwise, it's a mess.
finale | 09/26/08
Report Offensive Comment
Let me know if para 4 seems confusing or offensive, I'll explain.
MorgMcA | 09/26/08
Report Offensive Comment
There's something that I think is being missed. A lot of our tax dollars actually go right back to the rich. The comment was made that many tax dollars go to defense spending. Do you think the owner of Haliburton is working for minimum wage? Defense contractors end up getting a lot of their 'tax dollars' back. In today's news, who do you think will benefit (the most) in a bailout of Wall Street? Let's just note that the minimum wage on Wall Street is probably over $6 a hour. Posing tax structure as a 'redistribution' of wealth is nothing more than a myth to make us less rich people believe that 'at least something is in our favor' and give the wealthy something to complain about as they buy another house to default on and be 'bailed out'.
Elflin | 09/26/08
Report Offensive Comment
So let me get this strait. We don't have to pay the consequences for our ancestor's crimes and mistakes. But we get to reap all the rewards? I call Bull SH*** on that one. Can't have it both ways.
College Mind | 09/26/08
Report Offensive Comment
I completely agree with College Mind. More often than not in my classes, I see people that have gotten laid off from jobs trying to get a degree in hopes of getting a job again. I see mothers and fathers trying to get a good job in hopes of making their child's life better than their's. My father is a computer software engineer and my mother works for the school system, and somehow we've had to make so many sacrifices in order to keep food on the table and keep making payments on everything. And most of my peers are in similar--or worse--situations. The only help is from reforming the tax code and easing burdens on middle-class families.
Katelyn | 09/26/08
Report Offensive Comment
Tax the rich 10% more and give that money to education, grants, loans, etc.
CJF1983 | 09/26/08
Report Offensive Comment
So what about my ancestors, the Irish were discriminated against just as much as the blacks were later on, should I be getting a paycheck for reparations only to lose my house because 400 years ago someone else owned the land? somehow I doubt either solution is all that just or practical.
MorgMcA | 09/26/08
Report Offensive Comment
Wow, stop embarrassing yourself. With all do respect to the discrimination done against the Irish (my grandfather is Irish), blacks were in slavery for hundreds of years. They were lynched for looking kindly at a white woman. They were lynched, 100 years after slavery ended, for drinking from the "white only" fountain. The Irish today reap all the rewards of white privilege. Blacks never will.
College Mind | 09/26/08
Report Offensive CommentPost A Comment
Please keep it clean. Bad words will get filtered, and offensive comments will be removed.
CNN TOP POLITICAL STORIES
TOP STORIES on TIME.COM
TIME PHOTO ESSAYS
More than 50 years of cover stories about the 35th PresidentThe Brazen Pirates of Somalia
This year, close to 90 ships have been seized in and around the Gulf of Aden, more than triple the number of 2007
(Jason R. Zalasky / US Navy / EPA )
I think it should all be a flat percentage tax, for all people, regardless of income. I mean seriously, if you get taxed MORE for being successful, why would you even try to be something in the first place? I seriosuly doubt the Democrats know what they're doing.
RockmanHalo | 09/24/08
Report Offensive Comment