ELEPHANT-DONKEY.com

Ouch. IAmFry is going to rip you apart, my friend.

CorruptAbramoff | 09/24/08

Sandy demonstrates a deep and troubling paranoia in regards to the educational system of society and the inhabitants of said society. An unfortunate turn of events, as it sounds like sandy merely learned the concept of "thinking critically" about the world's information and arguments presented and extrapolated the concept so that anything beyond his/her scope of perceived truthfulness is regarded instantly as drivel, and labeled as "liberal," a fascinating term that many people ignorantly confuse with "weak."

qbpuck321 | 09/24/08

I appreciate the defense IamFry. Truly ignorant to demean education. People of her mindset were present during the Salem Witch Trials.

ReVoluTionNow! | 09/25/08

qb, you're going to have to explain the "thinking" part of your analysis, hoss. I understand the "critical" part, but I don't think there was much thinking involved, beyond what it took to pigeonhole Rev and then spit out the prefab disclaimer.

IamFry | 09/25/08

Look, I hate anti-intellectualism as much as the next Philosophy major, but is this really a productive face-off? I can't see this argument changing SC's mind.

finale | 09/26/08

finale - Don't worry, my friend. I'm a conservative, therefore I can't have a mind, according to you oh-so-tolerant liberals.

sandyconsuelo | 09/27/08

Nice to see another conservative w/ some wit. nice work sandy

MorgMcA | 09/27/08

MorgMcA, Thanks! qbpuck321, Let me guess: grad student? ReVoluTionNow, People of many varying mindsets, including yours, were present at the Salem witch trials. I think it's interesting that you find merely being present at an event sufficient cause to cast aspersions. This is the type of thinking upon which Joe McCarthy depended. Being there isn't tantamount to guilt (unless of course "there" denotes some point on the political spectrum somewhere to the right of dailykos, in which case don't even try defending yourself - you're guilty, and you will be destroyed). The Thought Police, constituted as only the American Left could do, will enforce "correct thinking."

sandyconsuelo | 09/27/08

You want to talk about Thought Police? Your the one demeaning education. I would not even consider myself part of the American Left as you so eagerly brand anyone who talks about anything progressive. What has the conservative done to progress this nation forward? Please give me an example. I am willing to debate anyone on this. Stop holding on to the past. I agree with fiscal conservatism and small government. You conservatives have even strayed from your own basic tenets which are described above. Dont try to justify your own slaveholder ideology regarding education with references from 1984. Orwell would condemn your train of thought. I say slaveholder because slaveholders would routinely kill the slaves they deemed to be too intelligent and part of the "EDUCATIONAL CULTURE."

ReVoluTionNow! | 09/27/08

ReVoluTionNow, Um...I'm demeaning higher education because it extols and makes more possible the reality of Orwell's 1984. Consider "Hate Crime" legislation, which increases penalties based on what the convicted person was thinking at the time the crime was committed. Do you not see this as a step in the direction of making certain thoughts crimes themselves? If I were to offer a positive conservative contribution, opposing hate crime legislation would be a good place to start (it has vastly more support from "progressives"). Ending slavery, opening diplomatic relations with China, breaking up the Soviet Union, advancing the entrepreneurial spirit in the U.S. would also make the list.

sandyconsuelo | 09/28/08

I'd love to have a debate on whether or not the higher education system is a brainwashing machine; challenge me and come right out of the gate with your arguments. Note, the burden of proof is on the party who argues that something IS, not the party who argues that something ISN'T.

IamFry | 09/29/08

IamFry, Is that why you started this debate with the premise that our higher educational system ISN'T brainwashing students? In order for me to bear the onus? How about this: The burden of proof is on the one who starts a debate with a claim. You challenged my statement. Now you try to establish a rule that puts the burden of proof on me? Support your challenge.

sandyconsuelo | 09/29/08

I am no fan of conservatives, but I do recognize that we have to play by established rules if we are win our national debates fairly. It is important to win fairly if we wish to hold on to our wins. IamFry has not played fairly in this exchange. Sandyconsuelo has repeatedly asked for supporting evidence, and none has been provided. Only invective. I am afraid, despite my agreement with the progressive cause, that I can't cast my vote for IamFry. Winning the wrong way will eventually lose us our cause, right though that cause may be.

montehustler | 09/29/08

I guess I may be changing the topic slightly, but... I really don't understand how people can dis education. I mean... someone above applauded sandy for being witty, and since wit and intelligence is often improved with educating yourself how can you say education is a bad thing?

Your God(ess) | 09/29/08

IamFry is correct in saying that requiring proof of a negative isn't a logical defense of declaring the positive to be true. That being said, I do think that IamFry needs to prove the truth of his initial Face Off statement. It seems he's stating that sandy's opinion of higher education is pervasive in our culture and I haven't seen any arguments proving that from IamFry. Finally, does anyone know if sandyconsuelo and stumeade are the same person? It's not often I see the term "weltanshauung" and yet they have both used it and seem to have the same writing style and political opinions.

Tamon | 09/29/08

Nah, you're right, Tamon. I didn't proceed as I should have by showing that sandy's position represents a significant, unfortunate element in our culture, but he never even addressed the FIRST part of my claim, that there was potentially an irony behind his statement. This debate never got out of 'neutral', let alone 'first gear'...

IamFry | 09/29/08

monte, I haven't provided evidence of WHAT?! That the higher education system is NOT a conspiratorial brainwashing device? Can you prove that it's NOT secretly run by Gremlins and Keebler elves who disappear in the presence of humans and erase any evidence of their existence as needed? In a debate, you must prove that something DOES exist, not that it DOESN'T. Sure, I started this debate, but I started it by asking sandy to defend HIS allegation that a conspiracy exists, and he seems to believe it, but he's yet to defend it.

IamFry | 09/29/08

I know, typical liberal, right?

IamFry | 09/29/08

You've got my number, sandy! Impressive how you figure people out so quickly! I know *educators* who pride themselves on their *intelligence* who would take numerous, extensive interactions with someone to get a handle on the 'sort of person' they are while you could probably do the same with a sentence or two!

IamFry | 09/29/08

By the way, Sandy, I'm not a graduate student :) I'm flattered that you'd get that impression, however. I simply can observe information and arguments presented to me and not completely swallow them or completely reject them based solely on the character of the person or group issuing these arguments. To be honest, you sound a bit like Ann Coulter. And we all know how brilliant and renowned she is.

qbpuck321 | 09/29/08