Reagan was responsible for the partisanship of this party
Ikefan said 02/23, 06:59 PM
He took the torch of Goldwater and extremism. I challenged you because you have a Reagan icon.
IamFry said 02/23, 08:01 PM
I'm happy to accept your challenge, though the reason I'm currently using Reagan as an icon is because he's emerged as a key topic in another debate, rather than for personal political reasons. Assuming that by, "the partisanship of this party," you mean the current state of the Republican party, which is arguably farther to the right than some would like it, I will argue that Reagan doesn't deserve most of the blame (or credit, if you will).
Reagan's persona may have been the inspiration for those who helped create the current climate, but he doesn't bear the responsibility for their actions. I wouldn't even give him 100% credit for the persona that was Ronald Reagan; it was a team effort.
As (Reagan-inspired) conservative talk radio emerged in the 90s and grew successful, it became increasingly clear the type of rhetoric that would get Republicans elected, and it was emotionally-charged and ultra-nationalistic. The Clinton scandal and war in Iraq each served as emotional fuel for the fire.
Bottom line: trying to credit one guy with the current state of the GOP is like trying to name the one guy who invented jazz... it can't be done.
Ikefan said 02/23, 10:40 PM
It can be done- and we can name the one guy who invented jazz. That one guy is Jelly Roll Morton, and Reagan's ideas caused for this great fervor and partisanship. And had Reagan not have served as a role model, the right wingers would not have an icon to live up to when they were insulting (in my opinion a good president) Clinton. And I see you swithced to Al Franken, so now I see you're actually probably more Liberal than me.
IamFry said 02/24, 04:11 AM
Partisanship= the unfortunate political divide within our nation (outside of the thoughtful opinions of those like ourselves, who care to debate/comment on the state of our nation).
Here's an article stating that JRM was a possible but certainly not definitive father of jazz: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jelly_Roll_Morton
That's my position on Reagan. He was a possible, but certainly not definitive father of the modern Republican party; he was the Jelly Roll Morton of the modern Republican party.
That's essentially my position; that it couldn't be attributed to Reagan, because it simply can't be attributed to one man.
Ikefan said 02/24, 11:27 AM
Lol, that Jelly Roll Morton metaphor makes sense, but I think he is. If we look back at all the beloved figures, it's Reagan who's constantly brought up as the reason for being so one-sided. Without him, I think the party wouldn't as one sided as it is.
IamFry said 02/25, 06:21 PM
Yes, Reagan is the one who's constantly brought up, but that's only because the talkers of today decided that he's the one to invoke.
First of all, the Reagan-worship didn't rise to its current levels until after Reagan's funeral. So it made sense to make Reagan the icon because his funeral was widely covered in a non-partisan way, and resulted in much publicity for the conservative agenda. Plus now, conservatives can say what Reagan would have favored without the peril of being contradicted by the man himself.
Secondly, Reagan is the most popular Republican leader in recent history, so it makes sense to use him because there are more people alive who remember him than those who remember... jeez, I guess you have to go back to Eisenhower before him.
So Reagan's status as the figurehead probably has more to do with people other than himself. If George W. Bush hadn't been a complete disaster, then HE would be the figurehead. In conclusion, Reagan's not responsible for today's politics, he's a device of today's politics.
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You're right Ike fan; I'm probably more liberal than you, but I only choose my avatars based on political extremism just for the fun of it.
IamFry | 02/24/08
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For the record, choosing someone to challenge in debate based on their icon is both silly and petty. And Bligh pretty much killed you in this debate. Reagen didn't create the partisan politics of our time, although many Republican foot soldiers carrying his banner certainly could be making giant steps (I'm talking to you, Rush).
Austhus | 02/26/08
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Considering how many states he won during his reelection, it is silly to think he was in any way divisive. And by the way, do you think Democrats simplistically painting Republicans as ???poor people haters??? isn't divisive?
twelve angry men | 02/23/08
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