Mikethearf won the Face Off.

Mikethearf vs FrankMonkey

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Face Offs: 46
Wins: 23
Losses: 20
Ties: 3
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Reagan
Face Offs: 2
Wins: 0
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3
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Will America ever get back to manfacturing or are we destined to just being in service trades and banking? Will others supercede us that way?


Newsflash: We are not number one anymore. Of course, that is not news for everyone knows that, although you'll find a small percentage that will fight that fact no matter what. Regardless. It is a fact. The richest man is in Mexico (no longer Bill Gates), the tallest building is in Asia, the biggest intake for business is in many Asian markets, Nokia (Finland) surpassing those cell phone industries elsewhere, we do not have Universal Healthcare as do most other countries, along with a slew of other items. Predominantly though, our manufacturing has become a joke. If there is doubt, look! How many things are 'Made in America' these days? Corporate America is smart. They outsource these jobs in plants and pay little, if any, tax for that. They do the same and save a bundle, though they are crying 'poor mouth' due to the economy (wonderful excuse for anything these days), most that realize profits cry the most and loudest. At any rate, President Elect Obama and his entourage will hopefully rise to the ocassion. Even if they do, I still think that we've lost potential in that department.


What a cool topic for my first debate. America can get back to manufacturing however we must make some very big changes in the way we think of labor. First of all, we must realize that, as the rate of technology growth increases, we cannot expect to retire from the same job we took after high school. If we do not modernize fluidly, we will lose our edge forever (see: Bethlehem Steel). Second, we must realize that each individual person should take responsibility for their own retirement. I concede, for those workers living under this flawed 'Great Society' era, this is impractical. However every young person must learn that thrift and savings is essential. Next, we must revolutionize the way that business is done in this country. Excessive corporate taxation and regulation, rather than simply enforcing common sense oversight laws, is killing our competitive spirit. Why do something here that you could do elsewhere cheaper? I know this is just skimming the surface, but Mr. Arf brought up P.E. Obama and I must say that I disagree completely with the President Elect on his tried and failed policy of over regulation, excessive taxes and unfair protectionist tariffs.


Good response! You should run for the office. It seems that not only are you an optimist, you actually have a plan. However, I am negative for several reason. One, is that it may be well too expensive to continue the manufacturing portion of all as it was in the past. Second, the corporations were faced with a rather pressing dilemma....pollution! Environmentalist, particularly the Green Party folks, pressed! Situations like the discovery of mass toxins in communities such as 'Love Canal', which silently caused cancer nightmares, to the self evidence of Pennsylvania's 'Chemical Alley' (30 miles of pure industrial waste), along with all the nuclear issues too, all of it, not good. Solution? Ship all plants overseas, make and sell the products cheaply and center all trouble there. The results? We get our stuff cheap, do not haggle with unions and wages, and, the pollution stays there, not here. Brilliant. Third, no one in their right mind in this society is going to loan a dime for anything like the described, no one will take the risk. All in all, I truly believe the people that give the full story. It might come back somewhat, but never fully. It's not profitable!


The corporations will see the thrift in domestic operations utilizing green technology with two main reforms. First, we have to change the way that the government legislates environmental regulations. For many years (at least since the seventies when we realized that there was a problem) the government has reacted by legislating hard targets backed by large fines. The problem is that the cost of the technology upgrades greatly exceeded the cost of the fines. The more common sense, and might I say conservative, view would be the following. Set softer targets in terms of deadlines. Perhaps a stepped scale of incentives for larger modernization projects with fines implemented in shorter term periods. New plants are required to meet the strictest of guidelines, where older plants must upgrade based on a stepped time table - i.e. 10% reduction in years 1-5, 20% in years 6-10 and so on. Failure will result in fines but getting done early has tax breaks. The second thing is that the unions must be brought under control. Excessive union benefits (full pension and medical care unlimited after retirement) is not going to work in our modern age. Will elaborate if needed.


I beg to differ. I have yet to see a corporation that sees any of the benefits that you mention. The bottom line of things is what really matters to them, and trust me, going green is a lot more costly and complicated than anyone cares to imagine. That would only take place once true incentives were in place. Such a situation would infuriate many taxpayers for if the goverment did it, certainly it would come in the form of taxes and such. Who will pay that one? I can appreciate your optimism, but in this world, I have heard of and seen better. And with your mention of unions, I must also respond on that one. I belonged to a union for 12 1/2 years and I can assure you, most unions only secure above board pay and some enjoy total everything. The rest of us, such in my union, struggled! Strikes took place not because of money, but beneftis and treament. Systematically, the business community tries to cut the unions to pieces and little by little, they curtail those exorbitant benefits of which you speak. Retirees that gave 30 and 40 years to our company got a pension on a sliding scale and no med benefits. Which ones get it all? I would like to know. Need a job anyway!


The UAW for one. They are going exactly where the steel workers went...out of work. Look at Bethlehem? They caved to all of the Union demands and they are no more. The problem is that these pensions gave people a false sense of security so they did nothing to save for retirement. I in no way advocate cutting benefits for those who currently receive them. I am talking about, in the future, standardizing 401K type investing and further expanding a saving society through education. The unions, which did so many great things for worker rights early on are now bloated, corrupt entities mired in bureaucratic inefficiency with the democrats in their pockets working in the interest of worker rights while their policies do exactly the opposite. All of the reforms fought for by the unions are now federal laws which means the union is no longer required to fight these battles. Any independent man should now be responsible and negotiate for himself. The funding will be present for such reforms if we cut taxes. Every time taxes are across the board cut, revenues increase. Further, cut the rate of increase for every government program to the rate of inflation as most are twice that.

Comments

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Independent

If we decide to go green tech, we have a great chance! Americans are hungry for a new direction.

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Reagan

If the market decides that is the way to go, I am all for it. If the government tries to force us to do it I will fight it every inch of the way.

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Fdr

Anyone ever read DILBERT at all? I know some engineers who say that DILBERT often has some scary similarities to their workplace, and until that STOPS... I don't think corporate America has a great chance... Now I know that is a bit off topic because DILBERT is about a white-collar workplace, but still... They are often closely connected, and many white-collar jobs are being outsourced too. America is in for some rough years, and something must be done. The only question, of course, is "WHAT?". Anyway... on <<--REGULATION-->> I strongly disagree with FrankMonkey on Obama's stance on regulating the economy. Yes, over-regulating is a bad thing, but under-regulation is much worse. Under-regulation is basically what brought us to our present situation. Now, on Obama's tax plan over-taxing... wtf? First of all, he only proposed to increase taxes on rich people (or, more specifically, people making $200k+), and second, he proposed to decrease taxes for everyone else. If you think taxing richer people is bad, I again strongly disagree. Who else is better off to pay? And if this is "punishing success," most rich people did get rich through success, and most of the time it was through cruelty or something of the like.

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Fdr

Oh, nate, so if the market says to stab yourself in the face, you would do it?

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Vote

Get all the financial big wigs into a huge air force hangar. Have them all down shots of 'Jaggermeister', and I mean, a lot! Then, give everyone of them an equal weapon, say a spiked club, or something like that. Afterwards, someone blows a whistle and they all 'go at it'. Once the bodies and debris is cleared, the winner (survivor) comes out. They get to rule everything and even a trip to 'Disneyland'. Woudn't need to debate a thing once the results are in. What? Too soon? Ever watch sci-fi films. Might not be realistic, but it sure would be interesting, no doubt!

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Independent

Mike; i would copyright your thoughts, i bet cable TV would make it a reality show, they need the bucks right now and this would be a great restarting place for all those top executives whose leadership is quite questionable.

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Reagan

Hello Miss Goddess...You have been misguided. The current issue has nothing to do with under-regulation, I promise you that. I'll leave you to research this further. As for the tax increases that we will all see, I promise you that Obama will sign the bills currently sitting on Spr. Pelosi's desk rolling back the so called Bush tax cuts (effectively an increase to everyone paying taxes). Obama's proposed $1000 rebate plan will partially off-set this for the lower income people but will hardly make a dent for those in the middle class and higher brackets. PE Obama has already backed off his statement that no one making under $250k would get a tax increase. Now we find out that this is couples combined making under $250. Then he changed it to couples combined making under $200. Biden says joint $150. The bar keeps getting lowered - soon those Mc'donalds fry boys will be paying more taxes too. That is the way it works. Modern democrats *except JFK* do not cut taxes, period. Your hatred and jealousy of the rich not withstanding, if not for them, most of us would not have jobs.

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Reagan

Mike - Thanks for the run for office thing...I have considered it, but I have a few skeletons so to speak (no drugs or radical associations, you understand - just a few skeletons).

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Peace

I have skeletons in my closet too - the cat likes to hide "presents" in there.

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Reagan

No, but nor will I let the government tell me what to do. Does the market make mistakes? Sure...but if this green thing is for real, we'll see this start to trend more in business - we don't need big brother.

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Fdr

You know, I could be a Mr... =D. Yes, Obama will probably raise taxes, but, to be honest, I'm really okay with that. First, I doubt he would really do it NOW while the economy is still, well, down in the dumps without much sign of getting better overall. Second, I honestly don't think higher taxes will be that bad for the economy if the money is spent in the right way, and I trust Obama to spend the money well. Take Universal-Health care, for example. People won't lose their livelihoods when they get drastically ill and will be able to buy/sell/whatever another day. Also, everyone will be able to afford the appropriate care they want and need, and that may actually end up helping the industry more than harm it. Now, about the rich, I wouldn't say I really hate them or are jealous of them, I'm just pessimistic about them. There are WAY too many examples of rich people being snobby **** that I think I may just be a bit prejudiced against them. Now, sure, there are good, rich people, but how many are there? I don't think there are really that many. And, as for them being the cause of most of the jobs, that may be so. But I think it that more people would really be employed if money were more equally shared, because the poor/poorer people can get access only if the rich people spend it, and since a nice way to get richer faster is to save... I don't see much of that money getting into other people's hands. Let's take, for an example, the so-called "Bush Boom." While the economy as a whole got better after the dot-com crash, most of that prosperity went to the rich. In fact, the separation between the rich and the poor grew, but not just because the rich got richer; the poor/poorer people, including plumbers in Ohio, had their median income drop. More people may have been employed, but with lower wages? That isn't right...

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Reagan

Young lady, all of those typical liberal views are completely incorrect. First, the gap between rich and poor did not grow. Even if it did, the rich got richer and the poor got richer. That is an absolute fact. If you confiscate more income from the producers and spread it around there will be a significant loss of jobs. This is an absolute fact proven every time taxes on the producers, the rich, are raised. Every single time. Being snobby is not against the law and plenty of poor liberals are pretty snobby too...being snobby is often a side effect of acting superior and most committed liberals feel themselves superior. More people were employed and wages across the board went up. This lower wages thing is a fabrication of the leftmedia and leftist elements in our government. Obama will spend the money well? When has the government ever spent money well? Obama is no different, and so far he is proving it, then Carter. Further, how can this man claim to be for change when his whole administration so far is washed out old liberals from Clinton and Kerry to Richardson. Whose next, Mondale?

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Clinton

The poor surely did not get richer Frank. What world do you live in? Job growth under this administration was pathetic and the current crisis has meant a rapid decline in employment. More children in the country are going hungry. Huge numbers of Katrina victems are not even permanently housed yet. You live in some sort of bubble.

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Peace

Katrina victims should get their own damn housing...how many years has it been? Get a f'n job.

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Reagan

Your falsehoods aside, I agree with cigar about the katrina people. They can, after this many years, be expected to find their own housing. We had record unemployment until the liberal regulation of our banking system backfired. Your party will choke itself out of power by 2010.

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Reagan

record low unemployment that is....

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Neutral

I am so glad that I have a heart and a conscience. I would really like to hear your whining if everything you owned was destroyed, the insurance company decided not to pay up, you had to start from ground zero in a bad economy. Thank God I do not know many people like the neocons on this site. You are without empathy.

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Reagan

I am with empathy but it doesn't take 5 years to get a job. The bad economy is new - last couple of months. These folks are a product of the liberal socialist government period. They are as helpless as children thanks to years of conditioning by social programs designed to enslave a voter pool. Katrina is a democrat failure, period.

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Independent

So letting the insurance companies and George off the hook is the answer, interesting! Say what you want wc & fm, the Democratic party was voted in because the republican ways were dangerous, reckless and corrupt. They are the ones who choked themselves out of Congress and the House, oops! did i mention the presidency too. Keep your falsehoods, you will need them in 2010, 2012, 2014, etc...........

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Clinton

Katrina is whose failure? You are finally funny frank!! It took a while but you finally made a good joke. So you keep thinking the way you think and maybe we will end up holding the government longer than i had originally calculated.

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