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And then what about the payrolls of the Board of Directors? Aren't those hurting the company much more than the actual workers' pay? I think so.

Your God(ess) | 11/22/08

I think that it is interesting when we attach the word "free" to U.S. created institutions like the free trade zones that we create in South America. We set these zones up, pay the worker about 13 cents an hour, and then we buy the t-shirt that they made for $20 here in America. Who wins out? The large companies, not the U.S. worker who has just seen his or her job outsourced so that we can practice slavery abroad. When our government says that it has abolished slavery forever that is a bunch of crap. No, what we have done is created Southern Plantations so far south, South America, that we can again practice slavery away from public scrutiny. As they say, out of sight, out of mind. The real problem with it, however, is that Americans cannot compete for a job that some big corporation can have a "free trade" worker perform for 13 cents an hour. There always needs to be a laboring class, its just that now America's laboring class is jobless, while some poor country in South America sees its standard of living destroyed because American companies want to pay some poor Latin American so little that they must live in a shanty home, and still they can't feed their families! There are so many ways that outsourcing American jobs is wrong, the free trade zones are just one of them.

RUSH for 2012 | 11/22/08

I think we are going to have to do what other countries have done in the face of unbeatable foreign labor. We have to rethink our whole strategy. Focus on high tech high value production which people will pay more for. It happened in Britain, it happened in Scandinavia. The production of Walmart crap will never come back here. But 2012, I agree that what has happened in South America is wrong. To discourage this, companies should be penalized for moving their jobs overseas. There should be tax breaks for companies that keep their jobs in this country.

Proud 2 b liberal | 11/23/08

I half agree with P2bl. The U.S. still has one of the best systems of higher education in the world and an amazing track record for innovation. As someone who works in outsourcing I can confirm that y'all are not getting those jobs back. If China gets too expensive, we go to Vietnam. We don't go back to the U.S. Part of the problem is union reps who are trying to get a better deal for their members and are just giving corporations an excuse to move even more operations overseas. Contracts have been signed and must be filled, if the American workers go on strike then the company has to send more work to Asia. Those who have done well for themselves are the ones who went back to school and got a design or management position, which are a lot harder to outsource. I don't think the companies should be penalized for sending work out. They are making sound investment choices which maintain low costs for consumers. Also, they provide jobs in places where people want and need them a lot more than Americans. Why do Americans deserve work any more than citizens of other countries? Educate and Innovate.

bigweb14 | 11/23/08

I wonder what an international minimum wage would do... probably piss off a lot of people... but maybe it would help some people out...

Your God(ess) | 11/23/08

It would also be impossible to enforce Godess.

RUSH for 2012 | 11/23/08

Maybe a national minimum wage is just what we need. It may force a level playing field and certainly improve the lifestyle of many living in China etc. Interesting idea.

Lunchbucket Dem | 11/24/08

You just lost my vote 10acous with the following statement "and you are right that some companies will try to pay workers a poor salary with no benefits...the WORKERS should be smart enough to avoid those companies! the free market works both ways pal: labor markets and product markets. " Poor people who want to work will take crap salaries and conditions just to have a job. You said in other debates that people on welfare should be forced to work. Well, where will those people end up? They will end up getting the jobs that no one wants, the ones that you mention with horrible conditions, unfair wages and no benefits. You seem to defeat one argument with your other debates here.

Proud 2 b liberal | 11/24/08

I'm thinking that a good book for 10acousD to add to his collection would have to be "The Jungle," by Upton Sinclair. It worked to scare those views right out of Teddy Roosevelt, and a good number of other Americans too.

RUSH for 2012 | 11/24/08

We can all thank Clinton for "That great sucking sound of jobs going to Mexico" He campaigned against in whole hardily. But guess who signed the paper that made it into law? But then again- companies were having to pay outrages wages to their employees and it was causing a problem for the bottom line- not profit. Unions were very important when they were created. Workers were treated sub-humanly. My brother is an electrician( has been for 6 years) and a union member. So far, all I see is dues being collected, when he is out of work, it is phone calls to them everyday and then they get an attitude about you calling too much. He has been out of work for 3 months. He was continuing his classes, at night, they paid for the class, he paid for transportation and the books. But... since he is not working, 3/4 of the way through the class, they informed him, they were no longer paying for the class, because he wasn't working. He wasn't working when he started it, he was getting A's. Yeah Union. They have long outlived their original purpose. They take your money, when you are our of work, give you little or nothing to live on, where does all that money go? And many times they makes demands to the company ( for their union brothers) that eventually causes the company to have to overcharge for their vehicles, lose money, or go to Mexico for labor they can afford. I wonder why the Japanese car companies are kicking our butts? NO UNIONS.

accwcc | 11/25/08

Thats a horrible thing to have happened to your brother accwcc. I think unions, as with every other organized entity have times where they fail their members horribly. But there are still reasons for unions to exist. Greed and corruption in industry is not gone. Large corporations will take advantage of workers if given the opportunity. Especially in tough economic times when people will take any job they can get. Yes there are problems and yes they should be dealt with but totally disbanding the union system would compound the problem.

Proud 2 b liberal | 11/25/08

YA RUSH! That book is one of my favorites. Upton Sinclair is a amazing. Oil! is another amazing one. Have you seen There Will Be Blood?

ReVoluTionNow! | 11/28/08

Rush your first statement is 100 percent on target. Go into Dillards and look at those 60 dollar shirts, MADE IN CAMBODIA. Probably cost less than 2 dollars including every aspect of shipping, manufacturing and raw materials for that shirt.

ReVoluTionNow! | 11/28/08

ReVolu...... so what? What do you care what Dillards charges for a shirt? If you dont want it dont buy it. You have 1000 other options. That is how the FREE MARKET works.

10acousD | 12/02/08

I would love to vote against you 10acous, but I can't. On the other hand I cannot vote for you either. Yes, unions are hindering some industry but unions are a necessity in others. My big problem with your argument is that you have said here and in many debates that workers have a huge number of choices where they can work. I wish you would open your eyes to reality.

Proud 2 b liberal | 12/02/08

Oil!, is it a fairly recent book? I'll have to see if I can get a copy of it, sounds interesting. It sounds like, from you're statement, that There Will Be Blood touches upon the same theme. If you can figure out a good way for me to talk my wife into renting it, she is an anti-blood themed movie goer, I've been curious about that one as well. I agree, though, Upton is one heck of a writer. The Jungle turned my stomach inside out the first time I read it. To address 10acous, do you understand how hard it is to find a shirt that has not been made in a free trade zone? Nearly Impossible. I've always thought that shirts made in the U.S. should display a designer patch on the outside of the shirt that prominently displays that fact. Or, for those of my liberal friends out there, an organization should allow companies to display a designer patch sybolizing higher standards on clothing produced by companies that meet U.S. worker standards in foriegn countries. Both of these ideas would promote higher standards of employee treatment, and nip the outsourcing of so many jobs in the bud. Why? Because I think Americans would be willing to pay, for the most part, $5 $10 dollars more a shirt to reduce outsourcing, and end the horrible abuses of foreign workers under the free trade system. Other companies would then have to fall in line, or lose out to the companies that do support higher worker's standards - which again, would be signified by the patch (in our society, sporting a patch like that could be really in.) Heck, the idea worked for Cesear Chavez during the Chicano Grape Strike in California. Those companies that gave into Union demands were allowed to place the Union logo on their crates of grapes. People started buying only grapes with the Union logo on them. When all of the companies that didn't give into this found that no one would buy their grapes, they gave in too. Again, my biggest concern is American jobs, but hey, this idea would kill two birds with one stone - both a Conservative and a Liberal issue. But again, this idea floats around in the realm of romantic idealism, and not rational realism.

RUSH for 2012 | 12/02/08

I love the idea of having a label (maybe on the inside, not the outside) that says it was made by someone making a living wage. I would pay $10 more for it. I try very hard to buy only from companied that comply, only to find I have been wrong. Even the big designers do it now. I do not want to pay 150 bucks for a shirt that cost 10 cents to make by a malaysian living in squalor. I am with you Rush.

Proud 2 b liberal | 12/02/08

minimum wage was NEVER meant to be a living wage. there is a reason a particular 45 year old man is still digging ditches or a certain 30 year old woman can only get a job as a cashier...maybe they are poor employees, maybe they are without skills. They don't deserve to make $40,000/year! It takes literally 10 minutes to learn to work a cash register. A cashier doesn't deserve to make as much as a policeman or teacher. The FREE MARKET should determine wages. The free market ENCOURAGES people to work harder and try to improve their lives. If you let cashiers make $10/hour you will see stores RAISE PRICES to offset this new expense in wages. you will see cost of living go up b/c everyone from kmart to your landlord will raise prices b/c there is more money in circulation. So they will be right back where they are now.

10acousD | 12/03/08