Corporate welfare does more harm than good.
10acousD said 11/21, 10:35 AM
When the govt steps in and gives a company a handout b/c the company cant operate in the black the govt is interfering with the free market.
**this is NOT referring to govt investing in new technologies...like when the govt funded nuclear research or if the govt gives out a grant for researchers developing an electric car**
The free market is a sink or swim system. We need to allow dead companies to sink and die. Yes, it sucks for the people who chose to work at a bad company. But a better company will emerge. Those who worked making horse & buddies could go work at car assembly plants.
Most of the lost jobs are blue collar factory jobs. A factory jobs is a factory job. You can go from making $12/hour at one factory to making $12 at another. Next time you should be more careful where you work.
The free market should decide what businesses live and which ones die.
It makes companies WORK HARDER and WORK SMARTER. It holds them accountable. It even holds the employees accountable!
Wanna succeed? offer the best product at the best price.
Should we subsidize EVERY failure in America? Heck no.
We have bankrupcy to help a poorly run company restructure.
Hillary's Guy said 11/22, 09:17 PM
The biggest failure in your arguement is moderation. Democracy always works best and shines when the people and politicians work with moderation. "Next time you should be more careful where you work" is not exactly a good economic policy. If this was our politics in the 1920's then american employee's would still be paid a quarter a week and your boss bould beat you if he wanted. I agree with you tone on the bailouts. THEY SUCK. But with moderation they can be very sucessful.
1) It's easy for you to attack the factory jobs because you do not work in one and do not realize their benefits
2)These are people's lives, not just stats. Jobs lost does not mean the 5 O'Clock news is going to be boring tonight. It means children go hungry at 5 O'Clock tonight
3)With moderation you can create a LOAN system with the company, WITH CONDITIONS, that will benefit all. Now punishment may be needed for the execs..they are clearly out of line recently. But With the loan and successful new RULES you can save jobs, families, and our economy before it all tanks to rock bottem as it did in 1929 when we refused to help ANYONE out in a tough economic ride
10acousD said 11/24, 11:52 AM
lets work backwards...like your argument
[3] i am ok w/ loans from the govt to business. a loan is NOT welfare and thus not part of this discussion.
[2] no kids are going hungry. We have a system in America called food stamps and if you make below 30K a year in most states you qualify. Plus we have churches and soup kitchens in every town.
No child is going hungry b/c they CANT find food...maybe mom and dad are evil and starve them or waste their $ on beer and drugs...but it isnt for lack of food
[1] you assume i dont work a factory job. you have never been an astronaut but i am sure you have an idea about what its like and you certainly can read about it and talk to those who have been.
YOU chose where you work. If you invested your life in a horse & buggy company just before Ford got started you would soon be out of work! And you may have to move to get a new job.
Nothing in our constitution says jobs have to come to you....you go where the jobs are. That is how the free market works.
Corporate welfare wastes public $ on failing companies.
Hillary's Guy said 11/25, 08:58 AM
If standing up for employee's and not a sometimes corrupt, free-market system is backwards, then turn me around and stamp me backwards.
3) Your argument on welfare is getting more porous by the post. If you believe the free-market should decide the fate of all companies then what companies are getting welfare, whom are on the antagonists side of your argument? You stats are also WRONG :)..."Most of the lost jobs are blue collar factory jobs. A factory jobs is a factory job. You can go from making $12/hour at one factory to making $12 at another. Next time you should be more careful where you work." In your first argument you said this...Sorry but this stat is incorrect. Maybe in 1955 everyone had a wonderful factory job and a union. Unfortunatly they do not now
2) I'm Seventeen and i have already in my life seen children starving. I'm not sure where you have been. over 30% of west virginia is under the line of poverty. They make less money then needed to survive.. They need stable jobs
1) Actually, I do not pretend to understand an astronaughts jobs. It is quite unimaginable to me
10acousD said 12/01, 08:05 AM
Lets talk about "poverty" first.
We aren't eating at fancy restaurants but we are not starving. Look at TIME magazine this week and they have an article re: how more than 1/2 of America is OBESE! Every single poor person in West Virginia or anywhere else has access to a food stamp program.
In the cities there are shelters & free food kitchens for the homeless. Even small communities have a community food bank, usually run thru the churches. If "starving" in America is not getting a T-bone steak everyday then yes, we have starving people.... But you cannot say America is starving.
Most factory jobs are considered unskilled labor...some are labeled semi-skilled. You often do repetative motions, maybe rotating positions within your department. It is a job that doesn't require much in the way of training (as opposed to becoming a lawyer or engineer). It is very easy for employees to move from factory job to factory job. Most blue collar factory jobs don't require any preset skills or certifications or college degrees.
The free market should determine pay. That means the boss and worker coming together in the decision.
It is fair for everyone.
Hillary's Guy said 12/02, 10:22 PM
Out of personal interest in this debate im going to return to the actual issue that you have left, after I respond.
3) If you believe there are not americans starving in the streets then you are sheltered and are more of the problem than the solution in fixing some of the world's treatment of the impoverished
2) I happen to believe that ,whether some economists elitist says its "unskilled" or "skilled", a factory job is ANYTHING but easy. Repetivitive motions or not they are working a very difficult and rough job. They shower after work, not before like the snobs who decide if they are skilled or not.
1) Our economy is in shambles and we need something done. My mother lost her job, due to outsourcing to India, and whether it was corporate welfare or not, we required and recieved assistance from the national government. My mother is returning the favor but working at a non profit drug rehabilitation center in impoverished south-east ohio. Welfare, in any form, (WITH MODERATION) works, and my family is a perfect ecample. You must use common sense and a common sense approach to this issue and i belive my argument embodies this principle Thank you for your time 10acousD
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Sure we will relive 1929. But as in 1929 we will come back with better policy, and stronger institutions. The question is do we want to face up to our poor economic decisions as a country and live through a quick, albeit, much more desperate depression? Or, do we want to prolong the agony, pour trillions of dollars into, what I like to call, the black hole of corporate greed (which has no return), and face the same problems anyway? I say we let the Capitalist system operate on its principles, which many of us do not trust, face the problems that we have created with stoicism, and let the system work its kinks out. Yes, this will mean that we will see bad times, but we will face them rather than future generations. And, future generations will learn from our era's mistakes. There should be no bailout.
RUSH for 2012 | 11/23/08
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While I personally agree that subsidies to keep our economy on its feet are necessary today, I think there are plenty of companies who have been getting lots of free lunches (or, rather, getting gifts from cities paid by taxpayers) for flawed or even stupid reasons. Ever hear of Cabela's? They get disgusting amounts of money so they can build huge superstores on the flawed reasoning that it will bring in more money. In so many instances this is untrue, and actually costs the city more than had they been left alone and the mom-and-pop shops stayed in business. This needs to stop.
Your God(ess) | 11/23/08
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I have to agree with Hillary's Guy. Although we have a free market system, there is a time and place for governmental interferance and regulation. Unfortunately, I think all of our elected officials have been asleep at the wheel during the last several years. At this point we need to reduce the damage and prevent a complete meltdown. One way to do that is to keep men and women working. Unfortunately, this will take some government assistance and future regulation. It may not be an all or nothing proposition; I don't believe throwing the money at already poorly managed companies is the answer. It clearly is more complicated than that.
Lunchbucket Dem | 11/24/08
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Kids ARE going hungry 10. Almost 700,000 of them in 2007, the last data available. And it is not due to evil parents of the 700,000. Soup kitchens are running out of funding. Food banks are running out of food. I really am shocked at the lack of empathy you show to other human beings in this country. One cannot always choose from a variety of decent jobs. Not everyone can relocate at the drop of a hat. You seem to be one of the priviledged few, and do not have any understanding of what it is like to not know where your rent money is going to come from. I wish I could make you try to live a day in another mans shoes. Unfortunately, I cannot.
Proud 2 b liberal | 11/24/08
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Hold on a second . . . rubbing my eyes . . . I think I am seeing twin blondes here. And they are both Hillary! God help us all.
RUSH for 2012 | 11/24/08
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You're surrounded and it ain't gonna get better Rush.
Proud 2 b liberal | 11/24/08
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Funny guy. Yep, it sure won't get better for your peace of mind Rush. Everytime you go to sleep for the next 4 years, thousands of Hillarys will haunt your dreams.
Proud 2 b liberal | 11/25/08
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Hey 10, does your hatred of corporate welfare extend to the money being shelled out to citibank this week?
Proud 2 b liberal | 11/25/08
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10 the only jobs being bailed out now are the Wall Street people. The Blue collar auto workers are sucking wind.
JustBlue | 11/25/08
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When the free market has gone into free fall, sometimes something has to be done that leaves a bad taste in all of our mouths. You are delusional if you think that hundreds of thousands of industry production line jobs are out there for the taking. So you want to abolish our safety nets for workers, abolish unions, allow companies to go under no matter what........The combination is deadly to this country. 1929 here we come.
Proud 2 b liberal | 11/23/08
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