Consequentialist Libertarian said 02/26, 05:03 AM
Many of the founding fathers were Deists (Washington, Jefferson, Franklin). The most devout Christian FF was Patrick Henry. He stood up while the Declaration was being written and suggested that Congress incorporate the words "Jesus Christ" in it.
He was booed to his chair and didn't say a word for the rest of the day....THATS how adamant the founders were for seperation.
Just to be clear, here is a declaration from Congress while Adams (a Unitarian) was President:
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion - as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion or tranquility of Musselmen, - and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arrising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. (Charles I. Bevans, ed. Treaties and Other International Agreements of the United States of America 1776-1949. Vol. 11: Philippines-United Arab Republic. Washington D.C.: Department of State Publications, 1974, p. 1072).
twelve angry men said 02/26, 11:56 AM
The phrase ???separation of church and state??? never appears in the Constitution. There is no doubt that the constitution is a secular document, however, all of the founding fathers had profound respect for Christian ideals. All of them, especially George Washington, prayed frequently. Even Thomas Jefferson, one of the least religious of the group is quoted as saying ???Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern which have come under my observation, none appears to me so pure as that of Jesus.??? No one can argue that they didn???t hate the idea of a government established religion. However, the restriction of religion would have horrified them. That is why establishing a government religion is banned but ???separation of church and state??? does not appear in any of their official documents. They wanted unrestricted religion without any one religion being favored.
Consequentialist Libertarian said 02/26, 05:41 PM
First amendment:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion"
Treaty of Tripoli:
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion"
Thomas Jefferson:
"All persons shall have full and free liberty of religious opinion; nor shall any be compelled to frequent or maintain any religious institution": freedom for religion, but also freedom from religion.
Thomas Jefferson:
"I may grow rich by an art I am compelled to follow; I may recover health by medicines I am compelled to take against my own judgment; but I cannot be saved by a worship I disbelieve and abhor."
Jefferson said this while President:
"Legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibit the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state."
Jefferson wrote voluminously to prove that Christianity was not part of the law of the land and that religion or irreligion was purely a private matter, not cognizable by the state.
You said, "establishing a government religion is banned". Way to go, you just proved me right. Congrats.
twelve angry men said 02/26, 06:43 PM
They didn???t want the establishment of any one religion over another. They did want religion, so long as the government did not interfere with the freedom of religion. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The key is that the government should protect religion, in part by refusing to tell citizens which one they must believe. They never said that to do this you had to eliminate religion.
Consequentialist Libertarian said 02/26, 08:34 PM
Where exactly are we disagreeing? I stated that the FF wanted a strict separation of C&S. I never even said that the FF wanted to eliminate religion. Please make an argument and back it up with historical evidence.
U. S. Supreme Court, Melvin v. Easley, 1860:
"Christianity is not established by law, and the genius of our institutions requires that the Church and the State should be kept separate."
U. S. Supreme Court, Everson v. Board of Education, 1947:
"The First Amendment has erected a wall between church and state."
Millard Fillmore:
"Religion and politics should not be mingled."
James A. Garfield:
"The divorce between Church and State ought to be absolute."
JFK:
"Both church and state should be free to operate, without interference from each other in their respective areas of jurisdiction."
LBJ:
"I believe in the American tradition of separation of church and state which is expressed in the First Amendment to the Constitution"
Barry Goldwater:
"Religious factions will go on imposing their will on others unless the decent people connected to them recognize that religion has no place in public policy."
The separation of Church & State is clear.
twelve angry men said 02/26, 10:36 PM
In order to draw up differentiation between our positions I"ll give a common example. Based on the historical evidence of the founding fathers being advocates of free speech, they would defend religion in public schools. Almost all agree that there should not be double standards, so today???s society decided that no religion should be presented by teachers. The founding fathers would have taken it the opposite direction by upholding that all religion is acceptable in public schools. I don???t agree with that stance, but based on the all encompassing nature of religion in the historical context, I think it is likely they would. They wanted to keep the government???s nose out of other people"s religion, but they probably did not think that government itself should void of religion. If separation means allowing free religion they undoubtedly agreed with it. If it means the individual within the government does not care about religious values, it is unlikely given their respect for religious beliefs. Even Jefferson hated the church, not Christian ideals. If you want a list of quotes to back this up there is always http://www.errantskeptics.org/Quotes_by_Presidents.htm
Jefferson actually removed all references to Jesus being divine from his family Bible. He was also one of the ones promoting the idea that while having a god be the moral authority it should be the people who decide which god they choose to worship. In god we trust was not directed at only the god of the Jews. It was an all encompassing word. Using Jeffersons name in your argument sort of shows the amount of research that went into it. Franklin was not a fan of religion in government either.
Eveas | 02/26/08
Report Offensive CommentThis guy clearly has no idea about our nations history. I specifically asked him to back up his opinion with historical evidence, which he did not. The closest he got to that was referring to Washington, who was infact a Deist, and Jefferson, who abhorred religion. The fact that he has any votes, speaks volumes about the level of intelligence on this site. Clearly you both know history, but this guy is an ignoramus.
Consequentialist Libertarian | 02/26/08
Report Offensive Commenti don't disagree with you libretarian, but name-calling is not needed.
Skipper04 | 02/26/08
Report Offensive CommentWow, the fact that you would give him a vote based off of that is preposterous. I kept the comment out of the debate; that is what I should be judged on. I really think you should change your vote.
Consequentialist Libertarian | 02/26/08
Report Offensive CommentI don't think you can use the comments section to get extra characters in debates (as you have here and elsewhere) and then complain when people cast their vote elsewhere because of it. I remain agnostic on this one, though, as I check the history in question. Speaking of which, I'm not finding any sources for your Patrick Henry anecdote. Mind citing one?
PhilSandifer | 02/26/08
Report Offensive Commenti didn't vote yet. i don't think i'm going to. let's tone down the arrogance a bit.
Skipper04 | 02/26/08
Report Offensive CommentI'm sorry, I do not recall this being a debate about school prayer. This entire debate you have tried to change the subject. You have failed miserably in proving your point with history. I wish you had of taken this seriously.
Consequentialist Libertarian | 02/26/08
Report Offensive CommentWell this was a severe waste of my time. TAM needs to learn how to debate.
B Unit | 02/26/08
Report Offensive CommentI probably shouldn't have taken the challenge. I agreed too much.
twelve angry men | 02/27/08
Report Offensive CommentHaha, I agree TAM. I'm sure you would have done much better had you disagreed with me. :)
Consequentialist Libertarian | 02/27/08
Report Offensive CommentPlease keep it clean. Bad words will get filtered, and offensive comments will be removed.
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That the phrase "separation of church and state" doesn't appear in the Constitution doesn't take any meaning away from the phrase "Congress shall make no law regarding the establishment of religion." I'm confused as to what TAM's opinion is, being that he suggests that the founding fathers' wishes were to have the mingling of church and state. You can't have it both ways, though. Even with banning the establishment of a State religion, you restrict religion.
Yitzhak | 02/26/08
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