Elephant-Donkey

Kristoff88 won the Face Off.

yngster vs Kristoff88

Face Offs: 22
Wins: 5
Losses: 16
Ties: 1
No City, XX
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Votes

Face Offs: 1
Wins: 1
Losses: 0
Ties: 0
No City, XX
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Votes

Hillary Clinton does not deserve to be the first female President of the United States.

yngster said 03/10, 01:22 AM
She has had more scandals than I can count and she is a European Socialist. There are plenty of more deserving women out there. We should give one of them a chance. She is qualified but not deserving.

Kristoff88 said 03/10, 10:13 AM
The problem with Yngster's logic assertion that Hillary doesn't deserve to be our next president is a theoretical and rhetorical one.

To suggest that an individual does not deserve to be president is to suggest that there are individuals who have some entitlement to the office. America is not an oligarchy yet, readers; who our leaders are is not determined by who 'deserves' the power and who does not.

How Yngster has worded his contention is of the utmost importance, because we are not debating merit, record, or even whom is more qualified.

We as a free people cannot to let our individual votes be swayed by what general opinion holds to be a deserving or undeserving candidate for one very simple reason. The avenues that generate this public conscensus are inherently imperfect, flawed, and biased.

Only the person who is elected president can really be said to deserve their position, because they earned it through the votes of individuals.

yngster said 03/10, 12:05 PM
First of all, you said that we are not debating about merit. According to microsoft word deserve is a synomym for merit. So actually the debate includes merit. Second of all, I am not suggesting that anyone is entitiled to the Oval Office. That is an interpertation, and frankly not a very good one. I am, however, suggesting that there are some individuals that should not be allowed anywhere near the Oval Office. Hillary is one of those power hungry people. She is one of the cruelist politicians in politics today. She is known for using scare tactics. She ordered someone to steal Kathleen Willey's cat and leave the skull on the porch. according to Hillary: The Movie she framed an employee of the Whitehouse Travel Office for embezzling 14,000 dollars just so she could give a job to a Hollywood friend. Thats one of the coldest acts one could commit. That man almost went to Prision. There is a huge honor asscoiated with being the first female President of the United States and she does not deserve that honor.

Kristoff88 said 03/10, 12:19 PM
You are refering to Microsoft Words 'shift-f7' feature, which is a thesaurus, not a dictionary. The words are similar but they are not the same; as is often the case in political debates, subtleties are very important. Here are the defintions of the terms in question from the American Heritage Dictionary.

Merit: Superior quality or worth; excellence.
Deserve: to be worthy of, or have a claim to reward

Further more, I was merely pointing out that it was you who said we are debating whether she deserves it or not, and contrasted that with having merit as a candidate.

You are saying now, though, that no one is entitled to the office. However, in your initial arugment you say that there are women much more deserving that Hillary. It is my stance that your assertion can't stand because notions of deserving/undeserving and entitlement are inherently subjective labels.

The only way, in a representitive democracy, you can say that Hillary Clinton does not 'deserve' to be our president is if she were to lose the general election. And since she's not even the democratic nominee yet, much less lost the general election, Yngster's contention that she is undeserving is premature.

yngster said 03/10, 02:08 PM
First of all, you must be kidding. A synonym is a word with a similar meaning. No synonym has the same meaning as another synonym. The definition of synonym is: a group of words that have nearly the same meaning.
Second of all, dont twist my words around what I said and meant is that nobody is entitled to anything. What i mean is: there are several women (gov. Seibius of Kansas) who are qualified to be president and have not had as many scandals. She alone has had 6 major scandals. Those scadals include: China Gate, Trooper Gate, Whitewater, Sandy burger, Norman Hsu and the recent 850,000 in illegal contributions,and lastly, mena airport. China Gate and Mena Airport are comparable to watergate. She does not deserve the presidencey because she is scandalous. We needs a female presient that the nation can count on. Hillary is not that women.
Third, my contention that she is undeserving is premature but to say that she does not deserve the Presidency is hypothetical.

Kristoff88 said 03/10, 05:37 PM
My opponent is simply trying to justify an inadequate argument by shifting the debate away from what he said in the beginning onto what he thinks will go over well with people; mudslinging and emotional appeals. It's my position to negate the topic that was presented in the headline and in his initial constructive arguments, and I've done so.
Merit and deserve are no more synonyms than justice/law, or freedom/liberty. The definition of synonym is two differnt words with identical or very similar meangins, like vehicle/automobile. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/synonym
In his opening argumentation, he rather shortly states that the women who are deserving of Presidency are not rumored to have the types of scandals he's claiming, but *never citing*, Clinton to have. I'm not arguing political bigotry on his part, but very simply that he's pre-assumed that some groups like "European Socialists" deserve Presidency less.
This isn't about voting yes if you like Clinton; and dont. This is about how to express doubt in candidates objectively, without relying on loaded opinions. I can't prove an opinion to be false, but I have proved it to be insubstantial and poorly thought-out.

Comments

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I would also like to add, Obama '08!

Kristoff88 | 03/10/08

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First of all, you said that we are not debating about merit. According to microsoft word deserve is a synomym for merit. So actually the debate includes merit. Second of all, I am not suggesting that anyone is entitiled to the Oval Office. That is an interpertation, and frankly not a very good one. I am, however, suggesting that there are some individuals that should not be allowed anywhere near the Oval Office. Hillary is one of those power hungry people. She is one of the cruelist politicians in politics today. She is known for using scare tactics. She ordered someone to steal Kathleen Willey's cat and leave the skull on the porch. according to Hillary: The Movie she framed an employee of the Whitehouse Travel Office for embezzling 14,000 dollars just so she could give a job to a Hollywood friend. Thats one of the coldest acts one could commit. That man almost went to Prision. There is a huge honor asscoiated with being the first female President of the United States and she does not deserve that honor.

yngster | 03/10/08

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What I said is that you choose not to debate merit. If you had, this would be a very different debate against someone else. You are saying now though that no one is entitled to the office, however in your initial arugment you say that there are women much more deserving that Hillary. It is my stance that your assertion can't stand because notions of deserving or undeserving are inherently subjective labels. Also, I'm having trouble figuring out how to post my next argument, whats the format for this, Yngster?

Kristoff88 | 03/10/08

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Also, Microsoft Words 'shift-f7' feature is a thesaurus, and not a great one at that. There are subtlties involved that are very important. Here are definitions of the terms in question from The American Heritage Dictionary. Merit: Superior quality or worth; excellence: Demonstrated ability or achievement. Deserve: to be worthy of, or have a claim to reward.

Kristoff88 | 03/10/08

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Sorry about typing my 2nd argument into the wrong box. It was only 6 AM at the time. I guess I wasn't awake.

yngster | 03/10/08

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Debaters shouldnt demean people, use facts, not thought. Unless this is strictly an opinion, right now it sounds like the 2 of you are just bored out of your mind. Use facts!

crazie | 03/10/08

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But where do you think they got that list of synonyms? Did they just come up with it off the top of their head? I doubt it. I'm sure they used a thesaurus.

yngster | 03/10/08

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Well, I think that we should include merit in this debate because that's what I intended the debate to be about and merit is a synonym for deserve. I dont know what to tell you. you should have looked up the definition for deserve prior the debate. But based on the voting so far it looks like you're going to win even though you dont know what the debate is about. : to be worthy of : merit <deserves another chance>- got that from merriam websters online dictionary. By the way worth was in your definition for merit and it was also in the definition for deserve. Based on you definition I can conclude that merit is a synonym for deserve.

yngster | 03/10/08

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Crazie, alot of debate is done with logic and thought. Not everything can be supported with statistical data. Though I suppose yngster and I could quote some philosophers, or something.

Kristoff88 | 03/10/08

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You really help your arguement by seeming unbiased towards any candidate Kristoff88. Good job! You never said your thoughts on Hillary Clinton. What are they?

Anthony | 03/10/08

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When compared to a candidate like Barack Obama, Senator Clinton is just another politician who supports the right positions at the right time. I don't really trust her much more than McCain, though I would vote for her over the GOP's nominee. I really don't want to have to vote for her, but I firmly believe that it won't come down to that.

Kristoff88 | 03/10/08

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Although I do NOT want Hillary to be president and would NEVER vote for her I have to say, Kristoff88 has a point. It is good to be unbiased and at least listen to her campaign. I still agree with Yngster though. Sorry.

jlin_92 | 03/11/08

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