IamFry said 03/11, 05:45 PM
The next best is to attack alliances.
The next best is to attack the army.
The lowest is to attack a city. Siege of a city is only done as a last resort.
...therefore, one who is good at combat overcomes others' forces without battle, conquers others' cities without siege, and overwhelms others' nations without taking a long time.
-SUN TZU
Battle means killing people and siege means destroying things.
Accidental Democrat said 03/11, 07:14 PM
I interpret the opening statement as neutralizing a group of militant individuals of any size incapable of fighting, which, in this day and age, could be depriving an opponent of munitions or other weapons.
However, there is a better way of combatless combat: circumvention of the will for combat. I hold the following against your opening line: "Those who prevent a motive for combat are the best of all." This is because the reward for their success, preventing all hostile actions, has more benefits that neutralizing an opponent, which still instills ill will and always requires expensive and time-consuming preparation for combat in the case that neutralization efforts fail.
The costs of failure are lower. Even if potential enemies get pissed despite our best efforts, then we fight them, which is what we'd do under any other circumstance. If we try to render people helpless via surreptitious tactics, which is the main way neutralization occurs, and if we screw up, then they kill/maim/punish our neutralizing agents, and we have to fight anyway. Starting from the higher, safer level first before working downward is always the better idea.
IamFry said 03/11, 09:24 PM
The hierarchy detailed is very clear: non-action/diplomacy is ideal, next is specialized tactical action, followed by full scale military action, then finally, attacking 'the innocent'. Depriving the enemy of supplies falls into the category of "attacking alliances" - the second tier.
One first-tier solution could be disseminating propaganda designed to intimidate, but another such solution may be a diplomatic campaign that successfully earns the support of the people and/or leadership - enough so that the lack of public/official support renders their ARMIES 'helpless', or unable to act.
Accidental Democrat said 03/12, 12:41 AM
I vehemently disagree with you on the brightline standard of what it means to "attack an alliance." My understanding of it is depriving a military group of diplomatic, economic and/or military support from a different group (which is not necessarily hostile), and I hold that this is the common perception of the phrase.
In addition, neutralization is not limited to supplies. Contaminating a water supply with a soporific certainly renders an army helpless but absolutely cannot be considered "attacking an alliance." Neutralization, even that which is proclaimed by the subject tag, is certainly a tactical action, such as the one just described.
There is a difference between unable to act and unwilling. A group of armed peacenik hippies is able to act but unwilling. Instilling unwillingness is thus a higher tiered option.
Also, since we're already considering unmentioned options, occupation of a city is more difficult and costly than besieging it, because while a besieger always gets the action and the besieged can only react, an occupier always gets the action while the occupier can only react, and so siege is in fact not "the lowest."
IamFry said 03/12, 04:30 PM
For our purposes here, attacking alliances does involve operations of some sort. Winning your cause by simply negotiating with your enemy's allies means that you've succeeded in the 'first' way - without 'action'. Physically impeding an ally's attempts to help - even if it consists of no more than the jamming of communications, is what is meant by "attacking alliances".
Contaminating a water supply certainly falls into one of the final two tiers, depending on whose water supply is poisoned. Poisoning the military's water supply is an attack on the military (tier 3), and poisoning a civilian water supply is an attack on civilians (tier 4). Even the dumping of laxatives into the enemy's water will be considered an 'attack', even if it's done in jest; after all, you're willfully effecting a hostile nation's physical well-being.
Sun Tzu's hierarchy is based on what transpires in the physical world.
Tier 4: Attacks on civilians (ie 9/11)
Tier 3: Battlefield combat
Tier 2: Covert ops.
Tier 1: Diplomacy
I agree that diplomacy is optimum because it is based on understanding rather than fear, and sets the foundation for progress.
Accidental Democrat said 03/12, 07:06 PM
I accept that in some rare circumstances, attacks on alliances can be tactical. However, I do not accept the unwilling vs. unable theme that my opponent proposes. As I've said before, a mass of people with rifles are able to inflict great carnage, but if they have no motive to do so, then they won't. They're able but unwilling. I would first keep them from getting such a motive (tier 0) than try to disarm them when they're pissed, because that's more dangerous. Diplomacy (or the crucial "war for hearts and minds") does not make an opponent "helpless," it makes him unwilling, which is a crucial difference.
"Attacking" an army should be understood with the same definition as engaging in "battle" with them. Water contamination falls under neutralization, not battle, especially if it uses non-lethal substances. This contamination is a covert-op, and covert-ops should really be tier 1, with tier 2 as disrupting relations (disrupting alliances via negotiations is not always a covert-op). I hold that IamFry's new tiers don't really match his original ones in commonly-understood language.
The occupation vs siege argument hasn't been addressed by IamFry. I call for recognition of this.
Thanks, I respect that comment coming from you... even if you preempted me before I could see your comment while I was typing :(
Accidental Democrat | 03/11/08
Report Offensive CommentI am curious if the "Those" mentioned in the headline is being understood to mean governments, or armies.
Kristoff88 | 03/12/08
Report Offensive CommentI guess 'those' would be any decision-makers who are in the position of being able to render an army helpless.
IamFry | 03/12/08
Report Offensive Commentyou're both saying the exact same thing. what is this, this is donkey vs donkey debating over what the meaning of is is
MorgMcA | 03/12/08
Report Offensive CommentFrankly, I have no idea why I'm losing right now. Would you against voters please explain yourselves?
IamFry | 03/13/08
Report Offensive CommentPlease keep it clean. Bad words will get filtered, and offensive comments will be removed.
IDF tanks and infantry launch a ground offensive in the Palestinian enclave
(Uriel Sinai / Getty)
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Thanks for accepting AD; you're a worthy opponent. I just want to preemptively clear up that the claims are understood to mean, "WHEN faced with military action," and not with an imperialistic spirit.
IamFry | 03/11/08
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