John McCain is not an alpha male.
IamFry said 03/14, 12:40 PM
We all owe John McCain a debt of gratitude for his service to this country. John McCain is a tough individual. Throughout his career, and indeed, his life, McCain has shown that he can take a beating, but taking a beating does not necessarily a leader make.
George W. Bush is arguably one of our worst presidents in history, but he proved to be the dominant of he and McCain during the 2000 primaries, when he went negative and McCain didn't retaliate. Sure, it shows character to not go negative, but it also shows submission to allow yourself to be steamrolled as he was.
Bush even made McCain walk out on stage and HUG Bush while Bush didn't return the gesture! Either that or it was McCain's idea! For years, McCain had been our country's loyal servant, but a servant, not a leader. If you recall, Romney began jabbing McCain, and McCain's return jab was passive-aggressive, false chuckling at Romney's expense. Passive-aggressive behavior is not that of an alpha male leader.
I can't say enough that McCain's service has been admirable, but as we're all aware, service doesn't translate to leadership.
Ariyel said 03/15, 12:28 PM
Your argument that McCain's passive-aggressive responces to personal jabs makes McCain less than a leader is completely backwards. A true leader knows when to fight, and when to just let it go. We are not dealing with children on a playground. The constant back-and-forth between Obama and Clinton has become a running joke and is quite irritating. McCain has a good reputation for his ability to cross party lines and garner support from both sides. This ability will allow him to creates a rounded team in the White House, avoiding both pitfalls of ultra-conservative and ultra-liberal.
"Leadership is a combination of strategy and character. If you must be without one, be without the strategy."
-Gen. H. Norman Schwarzkopf
IamFry said 03/15, 06:20 PM
That's right, I said passive-aggressive behavior is not becoming of a leader. A true leader know when to fight and when to let go, sure, but that's not what McCain did! He didn't fight back, like a strong leader, and he didn't let Romney's accusations of waffling go, he responded, at a rally, by forcing a chuckle at Romney's 'silliness'. A born leader would've attacked it head-on, or simply decided it wasn't worth mentioning.
*What back-and-forth between Clinton and Obama? Granted Hillary has slung some mud, but Obama hasn't gone negative; he only deals with Hillary's charges when asked.
Also, McCain's father was a Navy admiral. McCain's grandfather was a Navy Admiral. John McCain attended the prestigious Naval Academy in Annapolis. In spite of his lineage and education, McCain usually worked as a squad member and not a leader, and the highest rank he achieved during active service was Lieutenant Commander, six ranks below that of his forefathers.
John McCain was a great soldier; he simply wasn't a leader.
Ariyel said 03/16, 03:15 PM
A leader must adapt to the situation at hand and fights only when needed. McCain's chuckle was his way of shrugging off the accusations as not really worth his attention. Do not forget that he took other candidates to task repeatedly for Iraq and waffling when he felt it was necessary. Fists flying and guns blazing are appropriate at times, but the dismissive wave gets the point across quite effectively. McCain is well known for his self-deprecating comments. Humor is just his style. There is no real right or wrong approach to leadership.
The fact that McCain did not measure up to his forefathers in military rank is irrelevent. First, his career spanned a little over 20 years, not the 40 of his forefathers. Also, he retired as a Captain, not Lieutenant Commander. He commanded a Navy flight school, served as Navy liason to the Senate and eventually took the lead of that and now serves as a US Senator where he worked as Chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee.
He is known as a maverick that is not afraid of standing for what he believes is right. Lincoln's history did not bode well for him either and we see how he turned out.
IamFry said 03/16, 09:06 PM
McCain's weird chuckling wasn't "shrugging it off" (I looked for a clip, but couldn't find one), it was how he chose to take Romney on. He retired as a Captain, I know that; I said his last rank during ACTIVE service - he ascended several ranks as a poster boy/politician.
Sure, he captained the "Straight-talk Express" for a while during his 2000 campaign; he wasn't afraid to use words like "gook" and such - but where was his spine when it came to standing up to Bush's people? If he's not afraid to say what he really believes, then how come his tune went from vehemently against torture of any sort to being FOR waterboarding to appeal to the lowest common denominator in our society?
At heart, John McCain is not a leader. Watch him get skittish and betray his principles during the general election when his party decides they want him to decry McCain-Feingold.
Ariyel said 03/17, 12:08 AM
Sorry, I thought active duty Navy qualified as "active" service. What point does active service transition to poster-boy/politician?
McCain has not stated that he is FOR waterboarding; that is read into his vote against the Intelligence Authorization Conference Report. He objects to restricting the CIA to military interrogation techniques in the Army Field Manual. This manual is publicly available and restricting the CIA to it only serves to restrict them to interrogation techniques the enemy is trained to withstand. Waterboarding is already off the table as the practice was banned by CIA Director Gen. Michael Hayden in 2006. McCain is still adamant that waterboarding is unacceptable.
His "flip-flopping" is mostly either clarification of his position (abortion), compromise over details (immigration), or changes to represent the current state of the nation (taxes). Regardless, changing one's position to correct an error does not make one less of a leader. He has not betrayed his principles, he is demonstrating an ability to adapt to change.
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lol, sorry Amerika; I was just taking a break from that topic since the original debate had just concluded; the very next thing I do on E-D will be to answer that debate.
IamFry | 03/15/08
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McCain's chuckling is just one way of blowing something off. Some leaders attack head on, others are easy-going; just two different styles. One of McCain's traits are his self-deprecating remarks. Confronting this stuff with humor is just his style. This is not his only response to attacks however; do not forget that he has brought Romney to task multiple times on Iraq and flip-flopping. Leadership is not a one-size-fits-all mentality; you must adjust to the situation. The fact that McCain's forefathers accomplished higher military rank, doesn't reflect on McCain's leadership abilities. It's hard to get promoted when you spend five years of your 17-year career in a prison camp. You stated that he was not a leader, but forget that he was the commanding officer of a Navy flight training school in Florida and brough the unit to its first "Meritorious Unit Award". In 1977 he served as the Navy's liason to the Senate and eventually took the lead. Do not forget that McCain is currently a US Senator where he has served as Chairman of the Senate Commerce Committee. He is known as a maverick that is not afraid of standing for what he believes is right, regardless of how the mainstream feels. Do not forget that Abraham Lincoln failed repeatedly in his life before he took the reigns as president and, now, is known as one of our nations most greatest. I don't see a history of failure with McCain however, I see a man who has overcome adversity repeatedly and is still in the fight. I find that a great quality in a presidential candidate.
Ariyel | 03/16/08
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Apologies, please disregard my above comment. This is what happens when you are trying to formulate a cohesive argument right before running out the door and don't pay attention to what you are doing.
Ariyel | 03/16/08
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McCain is indecisive, and he has flipped on more of the issues than any other candidate. Torture, immigration, the economy, taxation...Before Super Tuesday, he was being deeply wounded by the conservative vote, and ended up behind both Romney and Huckabee. Then, his positions changed, overnight. He soon began to go directly opposite of his original beliefs, and nearly within a 24 hour period, he had the conservative vote in his pocket. I respect him for standing by the troops, but he should have stood behind his own convictions, first.
J.A.B.C. | 03/16/08
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McCain is not indecisive, he is doing just what I would expect anybody seeking the presidency to do, he is compromising where he can and standing firm on his convictions. 1) Waterboarding and Torture - See my final argument above. He still opposes torture, but will not bind the CIA to interrogation techniques easily studied by the enemy. 2) Taxes - Against the tax cuts originally, but now will not repeal them to provide stability and finances for businesses during a bad economic period. 3) Immigration - We need to combat illegal immigration by reform, but now he recognizes the need to stop the influx of illegal immigrants with better border security before we can enact reforms. 4) Abortion - Would not repeal Roe VS Wade and send women back to back-alley abortionists; now he clarifies that he still is not interested in completely banning abortion, but would like to overturn Roe VS Wade to turn the issue back to the states where it belongs. 5) Courting old Enemies - People he was once in conflict with, he is now courting. Any decent politician knows that keeping influencial enemies doesn't help; resolving old disputes is an easy way to soften this problem. Where did he go directly opposite of his own beliefs?
Ariyel | 03/17/08
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Regardless of the results, I enjoyed the debate with IamFry and am happy to see somewhere where these topics can be intelligently debated without degenerating into playground taunts. I look forward to continued postings.
Ariyel | 03/17/08
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Please keep it clean. Bad words will get filtered, and offensive comments will be removed.
Only Axl Rose remains in the group, but since 1987 GnR has been rocking with fury
More than 50 years of cover stories about the 35th President
Fry, did you forget about our debate!
Save-AmeriKa | 03/15/08
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