Sometimes, you just have to lie to children.
Hadrian said 03/27, 03:19 PM
Children can't often understand the moral complexities of actions adults are forced to take. Children tend to see things as either right or wrong. They say naive things such as "We do not want America to represent torture." or "Please make the US a leader in human rights."
Maybe even a gaggle of smart aleck "Presidential High School Scholars" might say something like:
"We urge you to do all in your power to stop violations of the human rights of detainees, to cease illegal renditions, and to apply the Geneva Convention to all detainees, including those designated enemy combatants"
An especially perky little miss might chirp in with a cute little comment like "Please remove your signing statement to the McCain anti-torture bill".
But children need their naps. Without them, they get all cranky and start whining about stuff like, "the issue of detainee rights has a lot of importance, because my grandparents were interned during World War II for being Japanese American".
Waa, waa, waa!
Silly silly children! "America does not torture people". Trust your president.
Someday, dear ones, you will be ready to be like the adults, indifferent to brutal violence.
superstaniam said 03/28, 12:23 PM
So who told you as a child that America did anything wrong? I'm assuming you're referring to anyone who doesn't agree with you as a child. Wouldn't it require more adult thinking to get past platitudes and into the reality of the consequences of both sides of the issue? Why not post a well thought out argument rather than metaphorical rants with no facts or supporting evidence. Wait...I forget...you're probably a gender studies major...it all makes sense.
Hadrian said 03/28, 03:07 PM
A full day before your counter argument, I provided a link (see 1st comment) to the news story with the facts behind this resolve. A group of 50 brave and bold Presidential High School Scholars seized an opportunity to confront the president with a letter calling for an end to our policy of torture during what was supposed to be a routine photo op. Bush apparently was dumbfounded by the scholars' letter. He just repeated "America doesn't torture" again and again after he read it. [1]
We know that's a lie. America does torture. Bush's lie to these children in 2007 was uncovered when the CIA admitted in 2008 to water-boarding Al-Qaida suspects in 2003 [2]. How is that for facts?
Waterboarding is considered to be torture by a wide range of authorities, including legal experts, politicians, war veterans, intelligence officials, military judges, and human rights organizations. A leader of the CIA team that captured the first major al Qaeda figure, Abu Zubaydah, says subjecting him to waterboarding was torture but necessary. [3]
So lets review the facts. America tortures. Bush lied about it. He lied about it to children. Your facts, sir?
(Links in comments)
superstaniam said 04/02, 11:37 AM
Waterboarding is described as a form of interrogation below torture by an equal number of experts. What you're arguing is a simple matter semantics. I still see no other argument made other than trying to draw facts out of a video which was posted on the linked website. Sir get something to argue about. Bush has as much information to discredit waterboarding as torture as you do to credit it as such (i see no such reports from the said experts in your previous post, so i think i'll just keep my high ground on factual info). As for my facts, I can only use up 1200 characters so my facts and sources will be posted as a comment below. How about we remember the information provided by a waterboarded Sheik Khalid Mohamed saved over 500 American Military Men and Women from raids scheduled to assault parts of the Green Zone Barrier. Waterboarding simply induces fear rather than actually maim or harm the subject. Unless you can ultimately prove that this is more than a situation in which the two sides differed over the semantics, then you're out of luck on having any actual argument.
Hadrian said 04/02, 02:57 PM
If the U.S. does not torture, why is the Bush administration trying to make torture legal?
Administration lawyers argued in 2003 that the president wasn't bound by laws prohibiting torture. Their report said U.S. laws and international treaties forbidding torture could be overcome by national-security considerations or legal technicalities. The report argued that Bush has authority as commander in chief to approve almost any physical or psychological actions during interrogation, up to and including torture. [1]
On March 8, President Bush vetoed H.R. 2082, the Intelligence Authorization Act. The bill would have banned the use of water-boarding and other torture techniques. According to Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., himself a torture victim during the Vietnam War, the water board technique is a "very exquisite torture". Asked whether they think waterboarding is a form of torture, more than two-thirds of Americans poll (69 percent) said yes. While saying that the United States "does not torture" as he vetoes anti-torture legislation, Bush's lies are more obvious than ever. They are obvious to these children, but not to you. How very, very sad.
superstaniam said 04/10, 11:04 AM
You still have yet to prove this is more than semantics...two sides disagreeing on a very "grey" definition...no physical harm is perpetrated on the subject under interrogation...that precludes torture in its classical definition...sorry for the wait...i was out of the country waterboarding terrorists...
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Well if you prefer Hadrian we could have our children saying "why do people constantly blow up our buildings or run into them with airplanes?" "why doesn't the government find who is doing this to us and protect us?" "why didn't the government help those people who needed saving?"
shrek | 03/27/08
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"Why doesn't the government find who is doing this to us and protect us?" They did! And they used torture to find out! The torture of an al-Qaeda operative produced a confession that was used to justify the invasion of Iraq. More American lives have now been lost in Iraq than on 9/11, thanks in part to the imaginary "life-saving" power of torture. Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi was interrogated by both the US and Egypt. He claimed that Iraq had trained al-Qaeda members to use chemical and biological weapons. Al-Libi's testimony was used by the Bush administration to help prove that Iraq was ready to provide al-Qaeda with weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons. And so we went to war to prevent this nightmare - weapons of mass destruction, including nuclear weapons, under Osama bin Laden's control. What better proof that torture works? But in January 2004, al-Libi recanted his confession, saying he had invented the information to stop the torture. If the consequences of torture are as catastrophic as embarking upon the Iraq War on the basis of fabricated information, it cuts the balls off the claims by torture's defenders that the practice saves lives.
Hadrian | 03/27/08
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Do you just start the same debates over again Hadrian and then copy and paste in the comment section?
ShawnF | 03/27/08
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ShawnF: A better use of your time and energy might be to question why superstaniam can't present any kind of argument at all in the faceoff.
Hadrian | 03/27/08
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al-Libi could well have caused more deaths if he was not currently being interned and tortured. Also, I find it extremely injust that Hadrian has made enough enemies with his 'silly' debates that his opposition is winning the debate before they even speak. Good Jeebus people, grow a sense of humor.
Zomgoose | 03/28/08
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here's my retort hadrian...some of us have a life...
superstaniam | 03/28/08
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You mean we have the unemployed dead among us? My god, beware of the attack of the welfare zombie debaters!
Hadrian | 03/28/08
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superstaniam: Apparently RickJS has more of a life..and more significant a job than either you or I. I've been waiting 26 days for an initial argument from him. [1] Please forgive me for thinking you too were pulling a RickJS or a 457692345653 even [2] [1] http://www.elephant-donkey.com/elephantdonkey/show/3161 [2] http://www.elephant-donkey.com/elephantdonkey/show/5801
Hadrian | 03/28/08
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[1] http://www.howstuffworks.com/framed.htm?parent=legal-torture.htm&url=http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/print.cgi?file=/headlines04/0607-01.htm [2] http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/06/waterboard.poll/
Hadrian | 04/02/08
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Among the rare manuscripts to be offered for sale at Sotheby's auction house Thursday is an 1864 letter in which Abraham Lincoln replies to the abolitionist pleas of 195 young boys and girls. The "Little People's Petition" asked him "to free all the little slave children of this country." Lincoln wrote, "Please tell these little people, 'America does not enslave people." -- thats how it would have been if Bush were Lincoln.
Hadrian | 04/03/08
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The infamous John Yoo torture memo has finally been released: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2008_04/013450.php "What justification was there for classifying it in the first place?...[T]here was nothing in it that compromised national security either then or now. The only thing it compromised was the president's desire not to have to defend his own policies ??? policies that led directly to the abuses at Abu Ghraib, among others.
Hadrian | 04/03/08
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"As for my facts, I can only use up 1200 characters so my facts and sources will be posted as a comment below" superstaniam said 04/02, 11:37 AM America is waiting, superstaniam. "some of us have a life......and a job..."? And some of us also have facts.
Hadrian | 04/09/08
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Some of us also have an argument and post it. After a week of waiting, I'm ready to declare a win by default. Thanks for playing superstaniam.
Hadrian | 04/09/08
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i think you try to declare these false victories when your behind...interesting tactic.
superstaniam | 04/10/08
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"As for my facts, I can only use up 1200 characters so my facts and sources will be posted as a comment below" superstaniam said 04/02, 11:37 AM Still waiting. Apparently facts aren't needed to win around here. Also supersiliousstan, debates operate with time limits. The ones on this site don't work. I think you benefit from the site being broken...interesting tactic.
Hadrian | 04/12/08
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sore loser...take your loss like a man or woman...whichever you indentify with...and go home hadrian...you lose...overwhelmingly...
superstaniam | 04/14/08
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What an arrogant fraud! "As for my facts, I can only use up 1200 characters so my facts and sources will be posted as a comment below" says superstaniam 04/02, 11:37 AM Still waiting.
Hadrian | 04/15/08
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Please keep it clean. Bad words will get filtered, and offensive comments will be removed.
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Hadrian | 03/27/08
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