Having a black president, presuming he's qualified, would be good for race relations and thusly good for society at large.
IamFry said 04/17, 03:04 PM
It's fairly obvious how having a black president would positively impact the black community; it would show them that maybe their kids CAN achieve anything they wish. They've heard such rhetoric all their lives, sure, but SEEING is believing.
As for the white community, well, we've heard the term "white guilt" for quite a while, but we've naturally denied experiencing it personally. I, as a member of the white community, acknowledge experiencing some kind of 'irrational' guilt, though I attempt to mitigate it.
Subconsciously, we may irrationally worry that a black man in power will suddenly reap vengeance for the injustices inflicted on blacks by whites in this country over the centuries. But seeing that having a black president is, for better or worse, virtually the same as having a white president, that subconscious, irrational fear may dissipate.
The end result could be that, when whites and blacks pass each other in the street, if only for a day or two, they may exchange a kind nod... and THE HEALING WOULD BEGIN!
Canti said 04/17, 10:06 PM
Barack Obama has led a privileged life. He has been educated abroad and seen the world. He is intelligent at that. His experience is a special one, not something many young black people can achieve for various reasons, one of which is racism, an institutional one that creates poverty and other issues.
It's not fear of a black president that I object to; I support Obama, but I feel that his victory won't simply heal race relations. It might not even be a step towards "the healing". His experience, by virtue of being unique, doesn't even mitigate what an accomplishment his victory would be.
What mitigates it is an expectation that it helps fix the wrong done to the black community. It does not, it simply affirms the assertion that blacks can do what whites can. A token gesture like electing a half-white man isn't even close to enough; electing one who acts like his white counterparts is the same as saying that the institution is whites-only; no other cultural identity can exist in politics.
It's insulting to the black community to think electing a black political leader begins resolving racial issues. Fixing it is and has been society's problem; Obama can't fix society, can he?
IamFry said 04/18, 07:32 AM
You talk about Barack Obama for two paragraphs; I didn't even mention him. Racism isn't about what schools you went to or how intelligent you are; it's about your physical appearance, and he fits the bill.
In your third paragraph, you suggest that my argument relies on saying that having a black president would heal race relations because, "it helps fix the wrong done to the black community." (And then you proceed in responding to that.) Well I HAVEN'T SAID THAT! I stated two reasons why it would improve race relations (on behalf of the black and white communities, respectively), and you haven't answered them.
Did you even read my argument? I didn't say it would HEAL race relations, as you suggest; it says right in the headline that, "it would be GOOD for race relations." It would be a step in the right direction toward equality. Explain why it isn't. You could start by addressing my first argument.
Canti said 04/18, 11:41 PM
You'll have to forgive my inclusion of Obama, the major black candidate, and misunderstanding your entire last paragraph as alluding to beginning healing.
So, your argument is that a black president will be a step to improving race relations; it would encourage the black community, and such. The black community needs encouragement, there's no doubt there, but what does electing a black pres. do?
Does it set an example numbers of notable black men have failed to? I hate to invoke him, but Martin Luther King, does he not inspire people? Is it because he was not recent, because he wasn???t President?
If a black man was elected, would some of his vote be from this white guilt? Would it ease a white man's fear of blacks any, the black pres. actions, would it even be picked up on by the average voter?
What can a black president do besides show that blacks can do what whites can? Hasn???t this been established?
Does it do anything for race relations besides that? Is this white fear and guilt assuaged by the pres. or by effort to understand on people???s part?
Is electing a black president a way to say relations have made strides when in fact they haven???t, because of white failings?
IamFry said 04/19, 08:37 AM
First, I said that having a black president will be good for the black community because it will show black parents that their children truly do have the opportunity to do great things in this country; it will exemplify equality rather than just 'stating' it.
You seem to respond by saying that M.L.K. was a black public figure and therefore, the black pres. thing is virtually done. Wrong. M.L.K. wasn't the president, he was an outsider. He wasn't in charge of the system, he was a victim of it. Public money was used to blast him with a fire hose; that generally doesn't happen to presidents.
It seems you say that having a black pres. would be moot because we already know that blacks can do what whites can do. Do we? How do you know? All we have to go on is rhetoric. How do you know a black man can be the CEO of GM? Or any major corporation? Can you see the suspicious disparity between the rhetoric and the reality? And why, based on it, some people would need to see to believe?
Yes, I think having a black pres. will assuage subconscious "white guilt" and irrational fear; it will also set race aside, having a black commander-in-chief, for those who care too much about it.
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He wasn't talking about fixing it. he said it would be a good step.
Skipper04 | 04/18/08
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FRY, I just am not comfortable with the undertones of this debate. Why do you say "presuming he is qualified"? This is the sort of nuances that are always at play when BLACK is concerned. its as if Whites believe they are doing black people favours when they dont object to black growth and development. Its the same attitude that is given to a lot of Black CEOs. Clearly he is qualified, unless qualified means something else in your terms. I know that America is not ready for a black president, this is just experimentation. If Obama would win, he would be the most scrutinised President ever. Whites fear that he will turn the White House into a Brooklyn type. He will build a basketball court at the front, the grass will grow uncut, and there will be pool bikini parties every nite. So Yes Obama is QUALIFIED like all other candidates, its a matter of choice. When it comes to the general election run off, Americans will be terrified by this possibility and vote McCain.
CRISP | 04/18/08
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I have to step in for fry here. In response to Peace&love, I think he was saying "qualified" to as to preempt certain predictable responses. If you swapped "female" or "Jewish" for black, it would still serve the same effect.
sallyjames | 04/18/08
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Actually, if I were to worry about any subtle characterizations here, it would be the one Peace&Love put forth...
sallyjames | 04/18/08
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I agree with Canti here, but there are a few points of his I take issue with. Barack Obama has led a privileged life, but how many presidential candidates haven't? Better yet, how many U.S. politicians haven't? Obama is as representative of the black population as nearly any other senate seat is of the white population. Secondly, I think it's unfair to characterize Obama as "acting like his white counterparts", like he's lost his own cultural identity. While I'm sure it wasn't your intention, it seems unfair that acting in accord with precedents set by previous presidential candidates is considered alright for white candidates but must be an affectation for Obama. Again though, I agree with Canti's argument if not all his points.
theandrewwest | 04/18/08
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Thank you, sallyjames; P&L- I said "presuming he's qualified" so that this HYPOTHETICAL argument could proceed without getting hung up on whether BARACK OBAMA is PERSONALLY qualified. Doesn't that make sense?
IamFry | 04/18/08
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Plus, YOU'RE the only one who thinks Obama will do those things to the White House, or that this is "an experiment." Really, you should work on that.
IamFry | 04/18/08
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I like it when people like you Fry with the kind of prejudeces you carry turn around when they realise that their arguments are actually demeaning and badly worded. There are two things, either you admit and withdraw a statement or do as you always do... twist it to make it sound like you would never say anything like that. The next thing you will say is that you "have a black friend" or your "domestic worker is black and" you "love her" and that does makes you less of a racist. PLEASE!!
CRISP | 04/18/08
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SALLLY, what is it are you struggling to say. whats your point??
CRISP | 04/18/08
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My headline isn't poorly worded at all! You're just an idiot.
IamFry | 04/18/08
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My only questionable language in the headline is my use of the word 'thusly', and I stand by it!
IamFry | 04/18/08
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Hey, Peace&Love, why don't you finish our debate about VPs? Afraid to damage that impressive win record on this oh-so-meaningful site? And I think Sally's point stood for itself...
DonkeyDude | 04/19/08
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P&L why are you even here?! Get over yourself, you don't get it, because you're trying not to. Iam makes it very clear in his title what he meant and didn't even need to come down to explain to anyone but you. Iam i hope i don't offend you, but i think i'll agree with you on this one, not that i'll ever vote for someone based off of race. white, black, female, male, irish, gypsy is should all be invisible and proving that it doesn't have an affect on whether someone can be president (for example) can go a long way in showing that it really can be invisible.
MorgMcA | 04/19/08
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P&L is tied IMO with alexon96 for the worst debater/commenter on this forum. Funny, they're both Hillary fanatics.
DonkeyDude | 04/19/08
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This is a good topic, with good points on both sides, thanks for the insight (albeit still early in the debate).
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