The United States needs to send more troops into Israel to protect it from an invading nation or from terrorists.
Chestypuller94 said 04/21, 07:40 AM
Israel is a jewish state. the Jews have been persecuted for literally thousands of years. Finally they have their own homeland and literally the day after it is founded it is under attack. needless to say, they have held their own during these conflicts. But in the october war, Israel could have been destroyed if the U.S. didn't help. To prevent another conflict like this, the U.S. needs to station more troops in Israel to help protect its borders and to assure it's protection from it's hostile neighbors.
JWise said 04/21, 09:29 AM
it is thinking such as yours that has led the US to be hated by more countries than any other superpower. too many politicians have been of the belief that we as the USA need to be the busybody housewife that thinks we know more than everyone else and subsequently pushes our ideals on everyone else. America needs to do no more for Israel than sit back and pray for the souls that are taken in their fighting. how can we defend, rebuild and finance a country other than our own when we can't even do the same for ourselves. look at gas prices, the housing market, the overall moral fiber of our politicians, etc. our country is headed straight for a second depression and we can't even properly secure our own borders and yet you seem to think that we should be doing all those things and more for a country half way around the world. no, chesty, we sould not be israel's brute squad, we need to improve our own country and get back to being the awesome superpower we were back in the 50's. pre-vietnam, pre-gulf war, post-nagasaki/hiroshima, looking out for numero uno, United States of AMERICA!!! let the rest of the world sort out it's own problems
Chestypuller94 said 04/21, 10:29 PM
First off: america was a superpower after vietnam and the gulf war. (let's not let this be part of the debate and get us off track)
Second: I am not suggesting that we rebuild or even finance Israel (it can take care of itself) I do think that we should defend it to the last breath. Put it into perspective. Since the day after Israel was founded it has been fighting the arabs. That's sixty years (almost to date) We have only been fighting the war on terror for about ten years. If Israel gets so tied up in another war with it's hostile neighbors it may not be able to spare any troops to help with the GWOT (global war on terror) I know that g=God has a shield of protection over Israel and so long as the people of Israel make god happy Israel can never fall, but i am not saying the Jews are perfect. If the people of Israel do upset God, and He takes away his shield, Israel might fall, and if israel falls, we will loose our only TRUE ally in the middle east. Also, if our troops are over there protecting Israelis, the IDF may teach the American troops some of their battle proven counterterror tactics, and it may save American lives.
JWise said 04/22, 07:17 AM
first off you ARE talking about rebuilding and financing Israel, because that's what America does. even when we go into a country and completly dessimate the place we end up spending an unnecessary amount of time rebuilding the country/economy/etc. we've done that for every single war, police action, conflict, or anything else America has been involved in. and just for this debate let's overlook that the israelites are "God's people". Israel has not been that much of an ally to us and likewise we haven't been that much of an ally to them. since i only have 1200 characters i'll let you look this up. go to this website: www.hirhome.com/israel/hirally.htm and read the timeline of US/Israel relations. now i know this is just one person's opinion but it looks a little bleak to me. finally, if we have to go in and help defend Israel what exactly could the IDF have to teach our soldiers. if they really are in such danger of being destroyed and require immediate salvation by way of the American taxpayer dollar and American soldier then they obviously don't know any special tactics that our Security/Special Forces aren't aware of. well, i'm out of space
Chestypuller94 said 04/22, 06:03 PM
Okay, i admit that we (the U.S.) have left Israel out to dry. But, This is not a debate of how good a friend the U.S. HAS been to Israel. this is how the U.S. can help israel in the future. We need to help them regardless because Yes our Spec ops probably do know as much as the IDF knows, but if we station regular ground troops there, they will learn. And for the last time, i am not talking about financing israel. i am talking about protecting israel by sending troops and not MONEY. TROOPS NOT MONEY. say it with me "TROOPS NOT MONEY". Besides the Israeli infrastructure and economy is in good shape
JWise said 04/22, 09:01 PM
why is it regardless? my whole point is that Israel doesn't have enough to offer for us to send our troops to their aide. we have enough allies in that area to support us when needed. and you neglected to tackle the fact that our very own country is nearly in shambles. we can't manage to fix the problems in our country, how much help will we be to a country that, again, really doesn't have anything to offer. they wouldn't be a strong ally in war as they apparently need our help to defend themselves. financially, that's a negative Ghost Rider. so why waste our manpower and MONEY...TROOPS TAKE MONEY, TROOPS TAKE MONEY....say it with me...TROOPS TAKE MONEY!!!
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donkeydude, call me naive but i can't tell if there's a bit of sarcasm in your post or not
JWise | 04/21/08
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Having debated Donkeydude before, I can guarantee you he's educated and knows what he's talking about in his comment above. More over, he's absolutely right. The problem is that America "doesn't do enough" for Israel. We do entirely too much. Israel is the single biggest beneficiary of US Foreign Aid and Military Aid. In addition to buying around $7b in arms for their military from the US, we GIVE THEM an extra $3b in weapons for free (and when I say "weapons" I mean MIA2-Abrams and Apache helicopters too). Additionally, if you break down the hard-cash Aid that America sends Israel every year, it's the equivalent of each Israeli getting a $600 check from the US government... all this to a highly developed country with a technological economy and the strongest military in the region? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. That is, until I read "The Israel Lobby" by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, then it started making sense. Check out the article here... PDF: http://ksgnotes1.harvard.edu/Research/wpaper.nsf/rwp/RWP06-011/$File/rwp_06_011_walt.pdf
MarkW2525 | 04/21/08
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Donkey dude: WHAT HORRIBLE ATROCITIES HAVE GOD'S CHOSEN PEOPLE DONE THAT HAVE NOT BEEN DONE TO THEM TEN TIMES WORSE
Chestypuller94 | 04/21/08
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JWise: No, I did not mean my comment sarcastically at all. I disagree with your religious perspective entirely, but that doesn't mean we disagree on everything. Your arguments are sound - as long as you continue to rely on facts and reason and do not bring God into this. Mark: Thanks! You know the respect is mutual. I am going to your link now. Chestypuller: I would reply, but when you call Israelis "God's chosen people," I know it's not worth it.
DonkeyDude | 04/21/08
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Okay then donkey dude; WHAT HORRIBLE ATROCITIES HAVE THE ISRAELIS DONE THAT HAVE NOT BEEN DONE TO THEM TEN TIMES WORSE IN THEIR HISTORY
Chestypuller94 | 04/22/08
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Chestypuller: Your question, as phrased, sets an irrelevant standard for this discussion. It literally suggests that Israelis get a free pass to commit atrocities so long as those atrocities are only 10% as bad as things that have happened to Jews collectively over thousands of years. My point is that regardless of what has happened to Jews over the course of history, Israel does not have carte blanche to do as they please now. That just addresses the premise of your question. In terms of substance, I'll leave it to MarkW, as he knows much more than I do about this topic. But suffice it to say that a quick Google search turns up a great deal of (admittedly unilateral) accounts of Israel's misdeeds. But I think it's fitting that you called them "God's chosen people" (all caps omitted), because that kind of sums up their mentality...
DonkeyDude | 04/22/08
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What are you suggesting Donkey dude when you say "because that kind of sums up their mentality"
Chestypuller94 | 04/22/08
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Do you have any points here, Chesty, or are you just going to ask stupid questions all day? Proponents of Israel and its occupation of the Gaza Strip, West Bank and Golan Heights believe that God has granted them the right to inherit the holy land. As an atheist, that sort of reasoning tends to raise my eyebrow. An obvious problem is that Palestinian Arabs also hold many of the same areas to be sacred. The difference is that they were there first and were displaced. I honestly don't know enough to argue this intelligently, but suffice it to say that any argument that calls Israel "God's chosen people" is not likely to be rational.
DonkeyDude | 04/22/08
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Your odd "Troops not money" chant aside (see your third argument above), how have we left them out to dry, when we've sent about $3 billion in annual grants to Israel since 1985? Our intervention in the peace process has been decidedly pro-Israel. WTF are you talking about? Actually, nevermind. I don't care what you have to say.
DonkeyDude | 04/22/08
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Donkey dude: this is what i mean by "left them out to dry" www.hirhome.com/israel/hirally.htm we could have done alot more. and btw you probably don't belong in this debate because you don't believe in a higher power, consequently, you cannot understand the Israeli palestinian conflict. Food for thought: Even though the israelis have hit the palestinians hard the palestinians started it! Read Understanding the Holy land. It has ALOT of information
Chestypuller94 | 04/22/08
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Actually, as a non-believer of both factions' religious perspectives, I think I belong in this debate more than you do. Your bias is painfully evident. Empty propaganda doesn't really fly here. Try J-Date.
DonkeyDude | 04/22/08
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i dont see what is wrong with having Israel as a strong ally. It is only the Arab states that have a problem with it, but i don't see why anyone else should. and Jwise, we dont just go around digging for oil in the middle east; it would be all over the news if Bush even stuck a shovel in Iraq. Do not look at this argument from the perspective of an extremist islam state led by a psychotic dictator- look at it from the perspective of an average Joe from... lets say New Zealand. Israel (a FREE DEMOCRACY) is constantly being threatened by its neighbors, who are all extremely un-democratic nations. The united States uses its sizable influence to support Israel. Through our support of Israel, we prevent war (although tensions may run high) because no one wants to mess with the U.S.
populist | 04/22/08
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YEAH POPULIST!!! PUT THAT IN YOUR PIPE AND SMOKE IT DONKEYDUDE!!!!
Chestypuller94 | 04/22/08
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Why don't you stop talking to me and focus on your debate - which you are losing.
DonkeyDude | 04/22/08
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Damn. I agree with JWise 100%. What is the primary driver of our love affair with Israel? Is it that our politicians need to brown-nose the powerful Jews in this country? Is it that we want a powerful ally/puppet state in the Middle East, presumably for purposes of oil control and maintaining a military foothold in the region? Is it truly just looking after a persecuted race? Why do we look the other way with respect to all the horrible things Israel does? How long do they get to coast on past persecution? These are not meant to be offensive statements; they are legitimate questions. Feel free to kick some knowledge. :)
DonkeyDude | 04/21/08
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