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Holidays are American tradition, it is part of what makes us who we are as a nation. We should not be a nation built upon money only (eben though sometimes I think we are). As far as Maternity leave, as a woman myself and I think you have lost your mind. That is probably the craziest statement I have ever heard on this site.

lovejones | 04/22/08

Jones, please attack the statement not the person. I'm happy to hear there is another woman here.

CRISP | 04/22/08

This is my point exactly that Holidays should not be viewed on their value but on the significance. They unite us. I'll let you fight the Maternity leave story for me,

CRISP | 04/22/08

Watch out, Smalltown. P&L is a cheater, and may try to sabotage the voting, like (s)he did with our recent debate. Just check out our recently completed ''debate'' about being able to vote more than once. Just letting you know, be careful.

USA Pit Bull 63 | 04/22/08

Crying foul Pit?

CRISP | 04/22/08

Crying foul Pit? but I must say in the spirit of fairness, I did concede in my last submission that McA gave me a solution about changing your origional vote, therefore automatically I threw the debate. But thanks for the votes anyway.

CRISP | 04/22/08

I'm pulling a liberal and saying the vote was fixed. Integrity was disenfranchised. The last half of what you just said is incoherent, although it sounded like you just admitted you cheated.

USA Pit Bull 63 | 04/22/08

Proudofsmalltown - I see your points about holidays hurting business in the aggregate (although not all businesses would agree especially the ones that have dramatic increases in revenues on spending holidays), but I take issue with these points: A) You said we look like a lazy nation because of our holidays. What are you basing this on - the culture in other countries? France has a mandtory 5 vacation weeks per year and a MANDATORY 35 hour work week with one mandatory paid month vacation. Spain has three day weekends once a month. Most Eurpean countires tend to favor family time, leisure, and dining much more than Americans (think about the Spanish Ciesta). Other countries would probably view any additional American holidays as a much needed break from our obsession with work. B) "If people need a holiday, they can take leave." Where do you work? I think most Americans would be thrilled to work at a place that just let you take off when you felt overworked. Although some offices like law firms allow employees to occassionally work from home or take vacations when billing hours are met, the majority of Americans do not have such an option. "Taking leave" could mean getting fired, losing money, etc. C) Your arguments seem to all be coming from a goal to generate as MOST money as possible for business. Well, I guess if that is your goal, then fewer holidays and shorter maternity leave make sense. (Although there are plenty of arguments that people are MORE productive when they are not overworked and when they are happy with a balanced life such that more time off and a showing of employee appreciation could actually help business in the long run.) However, our laws and government do not have ONE goal in mind. The government is not here to just make sure businesses make the most money. I am proud to live in a country that - although values economic growth - also values human rights, equality, family life, and bettering the public good and moral. This is where your maternity leave argument is all wrong. On maternity leave: see comment below.

sallyjames | 04/22/08

On your maternity leave argument: A) Let's assume we agree that we, as a society, need women to reproduce B) Let's assume (hopefully) that we want to encourage women to enter the workforce and not just in the stereotypical jobs like teaching that are extremely generous toward the needs of a mother given the schedule but also positions held stereotypically by men, for example lawyers. C) Let's assume we agree that once women do enter those fields, for example law, we want them to stay there and have just as equal of an opportunity as a man to succeed (for example, at a law firm - to make partner). If we agree on that then we need a plan that will make all three (A),(B), and (C) possible, cutting maternity leave is not a good way to solve this issue. I would actually argue for more companies to encourage paternity leave, which many companies are beginning to do. As a country, we need to encourage the importance of both mother and father taking a strong and equal role in the shaping of their children's life. Although women need time to recover from childbirth, which can take a long time if there are complications or if she underwent a C Section, a purpose of the leave should be to foster the important bonds between parent and child during the child's early stages. I think the dad should be encouraged to forge those bonds as well.

sallyjames | 04/22/08

Daaaaaaaaamn! Pat, I think you need to send Sally a thank-you card for that one. Nicely done, Sally.

DonkeyDude | 04/22/08

While I kind of like Sally's paternity leave point, especially if the mother, for example, is the ''bread-winner'' --- it can also hurt a family's finances, if, for example, the father is the bread-winner. One parent should not be forced to take more time off, if, realistically, it can hurt the family and/or its finances. It just makes more business sense to allow the mother so much time because, well, she physically endures the pregnancy and has the baby. Lastly, Smalltown, you could take the angle that it makes America seem ''lazy'' based on America's high standard for appropriate work ethic. Then you can bring in comparative statistics of unemployment, etc., with Europe's, which favors so much vacation time, etc.

USA Pit Bull 63 | 04/22/08

P&L, I voted for you. Here, please finish: http://www.elephant-donkey.com/elephantdonkey/show/7141

DonkeyDude | 04/23/08

Thanks Sally, Well said. Thanks DD, much appreciated.

CRISP | 04/23/08

ProudofSmallTown - why don't you respond to some of the actually issues?

sallyjames | 04/23/08