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weareallequal vs DonkeyDude

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Capital Punishment should be abolished

weareallequal said 04/21, 05:16 PM
Capital Punishment is a highly immoral act, it is known as murder. Murder by law and by the bible is illegal. It should never be done, if people do it for revenge, then you must remember the saying "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."

DonkeyDude said 04/21, 05:32 PM
Any debate that begins like this is sure to suck, but I figured I'd jump on the grenade. Feel free to skim or skip.

Your support for your proposition is that capital punishment is an immoral act "known as murder." No, "murder" is a legal term of art that does not extend to state executions.

You then say that murder is "by law and by the Bible" illegal. That's nice, but again, executions aren't murder. Further, the Bible has nothing to do with the laws of this land (at least not in the overt nature you suggest). I know that comes as a great shock and disappointment to you, but them's the breaks.

Your last point(?) is not relevant and does not jibe with criminal justice theory. Retribution is one of the principal purposes of criminal punishment, especially as it relates to capital punishment.

weareallequal said 04/21, 07:08 PM
Murderers and rapists are very wrong in their actions, so why not give them a life imprisonment which is a far greater punishment than death anyway. Killing is wrong unless it is done in defense. Murdering a prisoner and claim it to be justice is not in defense.
If a murderer kills someone, and an executioner kills that murderer, what makes, the kill of an executioner different from the kill of the murderer? Both victims would obviously not want to be killed, and none of us can say who is allowed to live, only God can make that decision.
I know the bible has nothing to do with the laws, since government is seperated from church, but wait...why are so many laws based on the bible teachings? In regards to gay marriage, polygamy, murder, theft, etc. It is true that many laws derive from biblical teachings, but thats not the point of my debate.
The point of my debate is that capital punishment is wrong, in the sense that it is murder against the will of the victim. Only God can choose who gets to live, not executioners.

DonkeyDude said 04/21, 07:30 PM
Well, at least now we're talking about your subjective judgments, which I suppose is preferable to just a list of inaccurate and irrelevant statements.

Many laws coincide with the values espoused in the Bible, yes, but that does not mean (as I said) that you can say "murder is wrong in the Bible" and think that has anything to do with the law. The law is pretty clear: an executioner is not a murderer.

Since you think God chooses who lives, why did the original murder victim die? God's will? Then it was God's will when the executioner pulled the switch.

This is too easy.

Look... the laws of this country are designed, inter alia, to reflect this society's overall moral sentiments. If most people felt capital punishment was wrong, opportunistic politicians would "abolish" it to satisfy their constituencies. But most people don't feel it's entirely unjustified - at least in theory, if administered fairly.

In other words, your first argument was thoroughly inaccurate; your second argument was just an expression of your personal sentiment - which, I suspect, will not garner much support on this site. You have 1200 words to provide some compelling support for your proposition...

weareallequal said 04/21, 08:08 PM
Subjectivity is all a matter of relativity, your statements might seems subjective to me, and mine might seem subjective to you. However you got my point all wrong, either this shows you're imprudent comprehensive skills or it shows that your emotions cloud your cognitive process. I said we are not allowed to decide who gets to live, i.e. our judges, since it would be murder. The orginal murder victim died unfortunatley thanks to the wrong doings of the murderer, however if the murderer is killed by the executioner then that would as well be wrong.
Killing is wrong if it is not out of defense of your own life, if you are not threatened of death at the point of killing another human, than killing another human is wrong.
Many people tried to get rid of capital punishment, many people think it is wrong.
In other words, your first argument was an inaccurate interpretation of my argument and your second argument was not only a worse interpretation but no real defense in your side. Which I personally think would less garner support on this site than me. Good luck on your 1200 words to provide a true defense for your proposition.

DonkeyDude said 04/21, 08:28 PM
I am stupider for reading your arguments.

Subjectivity is not a subjective determination. There are subjective opinions and testable facts.

We ARE "allowed to decide who gets to live, i.e. our judges." Because that's what the law says. No, it would not be murder, as I succinctly noted above.

"Killing is wrong if..." is a SUBJECTIVE statement. The only thing that matters is that it is not in fact illegal - a fact owing to the overall moral sentiment of the nation.

Please take a course in remedial English. Deciphering your .. whatever that is .. is giving me a headache.

Your whole "I'm rubber, you're glue" thing is immature, and when you apply it as unintelligently and immaturely as you have here, it only hurts the strength of your argument. But then, you never really had an argument in the first place.

I don't need the other 348 words.

Comments

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weareallequal...Yeah lets cut the murders and rapists a break. after all, all they did was **** and murder somebody. Yeah right. Without capital punishment there would be too many people in prision for life. We would have to build more prisions. It's just not worth it. I say just kill those mother ****.

yngster | 04/21/08

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yngster, your comment cracked me up. But I will note for the record that the part of me that is in favor of capital punishment is not principally concerned with the economic reasoning. There are much more efficient ways to lower our crime-related spending, such as reevaluating the war on drugs, that would have to be considered before I would embrace that position. Nor do I really consider it a powerful deterrent (not that you mentioned that).

DonkeyDude | 04/21/08

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While I personally am against capital punishment, weareallequal is frankly doing a lousy job arguing the point. The tenants of the Bible do not (or should not, at any rate) have any influence on this nation's laws (separation of church and state). If you think that murder and theft are illegal because the Bible condemns them, I'm sorry, but you're seriously mistaken. The ban on gay marriage is simply bigotry, plain and simple, people simply turn to the Bible for support of their prejudices. I'm sorry, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" and "only God can make that decision" are poor arguments. At the same time, no, Donkey Dude, retribution is not one of the principal purposes of criminal punishment, nor should it be in any humane society. Our criminal justice system acts 1. To deter people from committing crimes and 2. Keep criminals off the streets and penalize them to prevent future criminal activity. Life imprisonment does all of this just as well as the death penalty, and costs less, too, considering all of the automatic appeals you get with the death sentence and administering the penalty itself. Besides that, how can a society call itself humane when taking another man's life is so-called justice? yngster, do you know how many executions the State carries out every year? We would not need to "build more prisons" to accommodate the scum, except maybe in Texas. Maybe I should start a debate of my own.

baftaboo | 04/21/08

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Baftaboo, I agree with almost all of your points. However, you are wrong to challenge me on the purposes of punishment in our criminal justice system. There are at least four (4) purposes stated in any criminal law book in the nation (certainly in our books at UCLA Law): Incapacitation (which you mentioned); Deterrence (also mentioned); Retribution (what I'm talking about); and Rehabilitation (which nobody argues with a straight face). Next.

DonkeyDude | 04/21/08

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I really wish all these religious freaks would stop using this site to spew out bible versus and regergitate the brainwashings of their faith. You really make for the most illogical and idiotic debaters. Bringing up religion as a base for forming community morals (which should serve to shape laws) could definitely be a smart tactic. But basing EVERY argument on "I AM RIGHT BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS" defies everything for which that debate and logic stands. STOP IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Grow up, read books other than the Bible or books written by hardcore Christians, and go to SCHOOL. PLEASE educate yourself outside of your own little bubble. Weareallequal: "Capital Punishment is a highly immoral act, it is known as murder." "K N O W N" as murder??? NO! Idiot! It isn't "known" as murden. I would advise you to go to law school, but let's be honest - you wouldn't get in.

sallyjames | 04/21/08

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Law student, eh? Well then, I withdraw that point, you have me beat there. Although I do think it's a little ridiculous that that's an element of our criminal justice system, but that's neither here nor there. I'm not inclined to argue a point (intelligently, anyway) through comments, especially as long-winded as I am (I'm annoyed that my comments all become one paragraph). I imagine I'll be doing some debating of my own at some point, though, and I hope you'll be my opponent some time. From what I can gather, you're one of the few really intelligent debaters on this site (not to mention respectful, of which there are perhaps fewer here).

baftaboo | 04/21/08

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Actually, for the record, I'm a lawyer. But thank you for the complimentary words. I agree that debating in the comments is a little troublesome. I look forward to fighting it out with you one of these days. :-)

DonkeyDude | 04/21/08

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Good Lord. How has a conservative voice not been expressed here? Capital punishment is necessary. It sends the message that we don't tolerate crimes. People don't do those crimes or they will die. Pretty simple to see how that helps the country...

majestik | 04/22/08

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