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DonkeyDude vs JWise

Face Offs: 30
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Losses: 6
Ties: 2
Los Angeles, CA
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Face Offs: 6
Wins: 3
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Ties: 1
PoDunk, NC
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Votes

In accordance with the Supreme Ct's interpretation of the Establishment Clause, the words "under God" should be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance.

DonkeyDude said 04/23, 01:49 PM
The CA Supreme Court said it best:

"[T]he statement that the United States is a nation 'under God' is an endorsement of religion. It is a profession of a religious belief, namely, a belief in monotheism.

The recitation that ours is a nation 'under God' is not a mere acknowledgment that many Americans believe in a deity. Nor is it merely descriptive of the undeniable historical significance of religion in the founding of the Republic. Rather, the phrase 'one nation under God' in the context of the Pledge is normative.

To recite the Pledge is not to describe the United States; instead, it is to swear allegiance to the values for which the flag stands: unity, indivisibility, liberty, justice, and ??? since 1954 ??? monotheism.

The text of the ... Pledge, codified in federal law, impermissibly takes a position with respect to the purely religious question of the existence and identity of God. A profession that we are a nation "under God" is identical, for Establishment Clause purposes, to a profession that we are a nation "under Jesus," a nation "under Vishnu," a nation "under Zeus," or a nation "under no god," because none of these professions can be neutral with respect to religion."

JWise said 04/23, 02:25 PM
Hey DD you know, i'm not usually the type to apply any other meaning of the word god to the word god. but this time i'm gonna try. i have always enjoyed the fact that God has been on our nation's currency and in the pledge of allegiance. however, looking at a $1.00 bill, i realize that the god mentioned there is not necessarily God that is mentioned in the Bible as the creator of our universe(which he did in 7 days(that was for weareallequal))but it could technically be Zeus, Jupiter, Allah, or any other secular god. if you look at the bill the phrase, "IN GOD WE TRUST" is typed exactly like that, in all caps. so, deductive reasoning would lead a rational person to believe that if you make it all lower case then it would look like "in god we trust" and god with a little g is just a god, not THE God. secondly to address your actual debate the pledge is spoken word not written. and as any educated person knows you can't distinguish capital letters in speech. and there is a big difference, semanticaly speaking, between God and god. also, "god" could refer to the $ itself.

DonkeyDude said 04/23, 02:32 PM
I don't know where to begin. Please define "secular God."

I was not talking about the dollar bill, although I am happy to do so - in another debate, ideally not against you. The pledge of allegiance has special significance because we are swearing our allegiance to a set of ideals that includes monotheism. This is why I was specifically hoping you would not take this debate. You don't bother to address the reasoning I jacked from the CA Supreme Court.

And your "deductive reasoning" skills are deplorable. If you write my name in all caps, you get "ANDREW." That does not mean that otherwise it is "andrew." I hate this.

"As any educated person knows?" What higher education provided you with that brilliant insight, that "you can't distinguish capital letters in speech?" Shoot me. See my last paragraph for why your point is terrible.

God = $? Interesting. If you're stoned. But I am not, so I am sitting here miserable because you took this argument. I think I would rather have debated PEACE&LOVE.

Please, somebody else, debate me on the issue here.

JWise said 04/23, 03:03 PM
well i can't understand how you perceive me as fanatical, but since you're an athiest anything with the word God, Jesus, Christ, etc screams fanatic. so sure, i'll let this debate go but you shouldn't be afraid of religion and you should welcome religious views, maybe you'll learn something

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The quote is taken from Newdow v. US, http://www.constitution.org/usfc/9/newdow_v_us.htm

DonkeyDude | 04/23/08

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JWise, before you argue, please consider abandoning this one. With all due respect, you are a religious fanatic and are incapable of seeing this issue squarely. I'd like to take on an intelligent person (ideally conservative) like DDZ, Pablo, Andrew West, etc. In fact, if any of you want to debate this, let me know and I'll challenge you personally. My email is andrewucla@gmail.com

DonkeyDude | 04/23/08

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Sorry, that list was not exhaustive. ProudofSmallTown, gopdiva, MorgMcA, you are all welcome as well. You too, MarkW, although I doubt you'd disagree with my argument.

DonkeyDude | 04/23/08

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Aw, I'm not invited?

USA Pit Bull 63 | 04/23/08

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haha, sorry PB. I figured you'd be too busy talking sh*t to P&L to debate. lol. Actually, I imagine you'd also agree with my perspective.

DonkeyDude | 04/23/08

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And JWise, you didn't need to forfeit. But thanks. I would have been fine just abandoning it.

DonkeyDude | 04/23/08

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While I wouldn't necessarily agree with your perspective, good point about P&L.... Grrrr....

USA Pit Bull 63 | 04/23/08

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PB... bottom licking again, you have an inferiority complex problem. DD has turned all of you boys into his clowns (credit to him). This must make you feel good DD. PB, he actually thinks you're not intelligent, but hey, if you want votes, diplomacy is the way to go. Thanks for the invitation DD, but I'll pass on this particular subject.

POST | 04/24/08

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PB...Having DD on your side gives you some sort of affirmation. My point agian... Parenting.

POST | 04/24/08

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